SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Politics are in the air this week as Democrats gather in Chicago for their national convention. But for the next few minutes, we are going to set aside the politics of real life for fiction...
(SOUNDBITE OF W.G. SNUFFY WALDEN'S "MAIN TITLE (THE WEST WING)")
DETROW: ...A very specific political fiction of contested political conventions, of accidental arrests of Supreme Court nominees, of secret plans to fight inflation. We are talking about "The West Wing." Twenty-five years ago next month, it premiered on NBC. When the show first got picked up, the cast was skeptical the series would last.
MARTIN SHEEN: It's about politics. It's about very liberal politics with a Catholic president and a moral frame of reference and all of these very, very energetic, committed young people. Who's going to watch it?
DETROW: That, of course, is Martin Sheen, who played President Jed Bartlet. And that skepticism - it was warranted because, up until that point, there was a pretty clear track record. American audiences did not want to watch shows about politics at all, as fellow cast member Melissa Fitzgerald points out.
MELISSA FITZGERALD: That had never happened in television before. There had never been a successful political television show.
DETROW: "The West Wing" was, of course, incredibly successful. It won Emmy after Emmy and lived on in DVD and streaming loops for the millions of Americans who first caught the political bug by watching the Aaron Sorkin show. "The West Wing" has had such a long legacy that Fitzgerald has now co-written a book, along with co-star Mary McCormack, all about the series. It's called, "What's Next: A Backstage Pass To The West Wing, Its Cast And Crew And Its Enduring Legacy Of Service."
Fitzgerald and Sheen recently came to NPR to talk about the show and the book. And I asked Fitzgerald, who played Carol Fitzpatrick, the assistant to the White House press secretary, what Martin Sheen was like on set.
FITZGERALD: One of my first days at work, I remember coming onto set and seeing Martin, and he was shaking hands with every single background artist and introducing himself and welcoming. It just felt like he was welcoming everyone to this family. And that's not usual on set. It's who Martin is. He is the most inclusive, kind man, who treats everybody with dignity and respect. And we have all benefited from that.
SHEEN: Oh, thank you very much. However, the only criticism that I had with Melissa and Mary was, they have got to find people who simply do not like me...
(LAUGHTER)
FITZGERALD: Impossible.
SHEEN: ...And they didn't do enough research...
DETROW: Where do they...
SHEEN: ...On that.
DETROW: Where do you suggest we all look for that?
SHEEN: Oh, ho, ho, ho - after the show.
DETROW: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
FITZGERALD: Yeah. Well, we did over a hundred interviews. We interviewed cast. We interviewed crew, writers, people who inspired the show. Good luck finding one single person who doesn't love this man more than anyone. And he is a hero to all of us, and I know he hates hearing this, but he is.
DETROW: Not even - since we're here in D.C. - not even off the record? Like, off the record, that guy was a jerk.
SHEEN: (Laughter).
FITZGERALD: Off the record, we say even better things about him because then - he's so humble. He doesn't want to hear them.
SHEEN: (Laughter).
DETROW: But one of the things you did was - and I - in all of the different podcasts and DVDs extras I've consumed over the years, I hadn't heard about this before - you organized an annual trip to Vegas?
SHEEN: Yeah. It was our bingo bus party.
DETROW: Yeah.
SHEEN: Our Christmas gift to all of the people that you normally do not see on camera. They call them extras. I hate that term. And so we wanted to celebrate them every Christmas. And so I would rent - I started with one bus. And by the second season, we were at two buses. And we'd play bingo in the bus as we get to Vegas.
DETROW: Yeah.
SHEEN: And everybody wins some money. And while we're in Vegas, they all lose it. And so I realized, wait a minute - we'd better have bingo going home as well.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: So we put that into the mix. Yeah, it was one of the most satisfying things. It was great fun.
FITZGERALD: And now you see why there's so much love for this man. And that was part of the joy of writing this book. This is a real book for the fans, for the Wingnuts...
(LAUGHTER)
FITZGERALD: ...And for the people who really want to get a sense of us as a family, too.
DETROW: In the spirit of the book, I want to ask both of you a few favorites. And Melissa, I'll start with you. What's your favorite episode?
FITZGERALD: There are so many. It is really hard for me to say, but I love "In Excelsis Deo." I think that is a beautiful episode. And the themes of that - you know, what we owe those who have given so much to our country - you know, it's the one about the veteran and Toby, and everyone knows that episode 'cause it's so beautifully done.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WEST WING")
RICHARD SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) This isn't a crime scene; is it?
LANCE REDDICK: (As D.C. Police Officer) No, sir.
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) I got the call an hour ago. I went to the coroner's office. I'm just wondering why the body's still here.
REDDICK: (As D.C. Police Officer) An ambulance will come by. It's not a high priority.
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) And then you're going to call the VA, right?
REDDICK: (As D.C. Police Officer) The VA?
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) Tattoo on his forearm - it's a Marine battalion, 2nd of the 7th. This guy was in Korea.
SHEEN: Yeah. My overall favorite, hands down, is "In Excelsis Deo." And my brother, Mike, was a combat Marine in Korea. And I just could not stop thinking of him when we did it.
FITZGERALD: Yeah.
SHEEN: (Crying) Still hard to talk about.
FITZGERALD: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WEST WING")
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) A homeless man died last night, a Korean War veteran, who was wearing a coat I gave to the Goodwill. It had my card in it.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) Toby, you're not responsible...
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) An hour and 20 minutes for the ambulance to get there. A Lance Corporal, United States Marine Corps, 2nd of the 7th - guy got better treatment at Panmunjom.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) Toby, if we start pulling strings like this, you don't think every homeless veteran would come out of the woodwork?
SCHIFF: (As Toby Ziegler) I can only hope, sir.
DETROW: My favorite episode is probably, you know, "17 People," when Toby figures out that the president is hiding a big secret. But I recently rewatched the episode where that all comes to a head, "Two Cathedrals," where President Bartlet is debating whether or not to run for another term.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WEST WING")
FRED ORNSTEIN: (As Congressman Harry Wade) I think the president has got to strongly consider not running for reelection.
JOHN SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) You think you're the first one to say it?
ORNSTEIN: (As Congressman Harry Wade) Leo...
SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) You are, at minimum, the 35th in the last two hours.
ORNSTEIN: (As Congressman Harry Wade) Well, we're the ones that are talking to you now, and we're the ones that are asking. Is the president going to run for reelection?
DETROW: And I watched this the other day, and I just could not get over how, line for line, so many scenes in that episode could have applied to what we saw just play out with President Biden and Vice President Harris and this decision of whether or not to run for another term.
SHEEN: It's the most courageous decision that I've ever seen a politician make in my lifetime.
DETROW: Why is...
SHEEN: Yeah.
DETROW: ...That?
SHEEN: Because he took the most powerful office in the world, and he made it human. And he put it before his own ambition, before his own legacy. And clearly, he enhanced his legacy. We should all give thanks and praise as a grateful nation to that man.
DETROW: Though, as he wrestled with the decision, as far as we know, he did not curse at God in Latin.
SHEEN: (Laughter).
DETROW: So there's that.
FITZGERALD: Who knows? We were not there.
DETROW: That's true.
FITZGERALD: (Laughter).
DETROW: He might have. Last thing I want to ask both of you - when you close your eyes and you think of the "West Wing" experience a quarter-century later, what, to you, is "The West Wing" - in just a moment, in a snap, you know, in your head?
SHEEN: The theme.
DETROW: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF W.G. SNUFFY WALDEN'S "MAIN TITLE (THE WEST WING)")
SHEEN: I cannot hear that theme and not go right into it.
DETROW: (Laughter).
SHEEN: And all those extraordinary young faces appear, and then it all floods back with gratitude and praise. I just can't believe that I was part of that.
FITZGERALD: I see the people and the family that was created from that show. That's been one of the greatest gifts of my whole life. And you know, Mary and I really wanted - we hoped that we would write a book that - you know, we said if "The West Wing" was a love letter to public service, then what's next is a love letter to "The West Wing," the army of people it took to make it, the fans who loved it and the people who were inspired by it. And we hope that we honored our time together, and we hope that the Wingnuts love it.
(LAUGHTER)
FITZGERALD: But I think that we were most nervous about Martin loving it, so (laughter).
DETROW: And it seems like he hates it, so it's...
FITZGERALD: Yes.
DETROW: ...Really awkward.
FITZGERALD: (Laughter).
SHEEN: Why I ought to (laughter)...
DETROW: That's Martin Sheen and Melissa Fitzgerald of "The West Wing." The book about the show, which Melissa co-wrote with Mary McCormack, is called - I'm going to say the name right here - but actually, I'm wondering if Martin Sheen, you could say the name since it's based on your most used line of dialogue in the show.
SHEEN: "What's Next?"
DETROW: Thanks to both of you.
SHEEN: Thank you.
FITZGERALD: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF W.G. SNUFFY WALDEN'S "MAIN TITLE (THE WEST WING)") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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