Updated September 30, 2024 at 13:58 PM ET
With the health of democracy on the minds of U.S. voters, Poland’s foreign minister Radosław Sikorski said his country will cooperate with whichever candidate wins the presidential election.
“We want to have the best possible relations with whoever is in charge,” he told NPR’s Steve Inskeep.
The political debates leading up to this year’s U.S. presidential election echo those had in Poland last year. Sikorski said abortion rights, immigration and political corruption were factors for voters when they pushed out the right-wing Law and Justice party last year, ending its near decade-long rule.
Sikorski blames the Law and Justice party for eroding much of the country’s democratic institutions such as the judiciary and local media.
“There was a systematic attempt to capture the state. Public media, Poland's equivalent of NPR, was subjected to strict party controlled, became very biased,” Sikorski said. “They were trying to take over private media as well, milking state companies, subjugating the prosecution service to strict political party control.”
Immigration is also shaping Polish politics, especially by way of Poland’s neighbor Belarus. According to the AP, illegal border crossing increased over the summer from a handful a day to almost 400. Some of Poland’s border guards have also described some violent encounters with migrants, including one guard who was stabbed.
“Russia invites migrants from Africa and Asia, giving them Russian visas, and then moves them to Belarus.” Sikorski said. “Belarussian border guards push them across the border.”
Belarus’ Foreign Ministry shared the following statement from Foreign Minister Maxim Ryzhenkov in response to NPR’s request for comment:
“The topic of migration became increasingly politicized. Instead of solving the problems of irregular migration, political games are being played – who will earn how much money for it. We are convinced that all issues must and can be resolved through dialogue.”
Sikorski sat down with Morning Edition to reflect on the state of democracy in Poland, his country’s support for Ukraine, the Polish public’s concerns about immigration and abortion rights.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Do you think that Polish voters fundamentally voted out the government because they were concerned about democratic institutions, as opposed to issues in their own lives?
That was an aspect of it, but there were other issues at play as well. For example, the previous government captured and packed with loyalists Poland's constitutional court, and that court proceeded to pass the harshest regulation on abortion in Europe. And you were only allowed to abort when the woman's health was actually endangered. And we had these dramatic cases of sepsis and the woman texting her mother saying, look, they're waiting, they're waiting. I don't know what will happen. And then she dies. And Polish women said enough is enough.
So you had an election where democracy was at issue, but people were also concerned about abortion and immigration, and corruption. What lessons might apply if, hypothetically, there was another country that was having an election with very similar issues this fall?
You may well imagine which country that might be, but I couldn't possibly comment.
I'm sure you avoid commenting on the politics of other countries, but are there general lessons that might be applicable elsewhere in the world?
In Europe we have something called the Schengen zone, which for us Poles was a great achievement of our membership in the EU. Namely no visas, no need to carry a passport traveling all over Europe. And Europe is at the same time an area of high social spending. And I think the peoples of Europe feel that the perimeter of that zone needs to be under control for the internal freedom of movement to be sustainable. An open border policy is not sustainable and electorates don't accept it.
I know you don't want to comment on the American election, but you must prepare for the consequences of an American election, too. You're shaking your head…
Because Poland has had relations with the United States under Democrats and Republicans, and it will ever be so.
Are you prepared to advance a constructive policy toward Ukraine regardless of who wins the US presidential election this fall?
Oh, we will continue to support Ukraine irrespective of anything anybody does.
And you feel you know the way to do that if Kamala Harris is president or if Donald Trump is president?
Well, Europe has contributed to Ukraine even more than the United States. Your assistance is crucial because it's weighed towards military assistance, which is what Ukraine needs most. But the Ukrainian state continues to function. Wages are paid of officials and pensions are paid because we, as the European Union, transfer roughly €1.5 billion per month.
You're saying something meaningful for some American voters, I would think. If American voters are concerned that Europe should be doing most of the work in supporting Ukraine. You're arguing that Europe already is doing most.
Yes, we're spending more on this one. We're not a free rider. We really rallied around.
President Biden this week has announced another tranche of aid to Ukraine and has said, not for the first time, that the goal is to win the war. Is that a realistic goal?
Putin's resources are not infinite. Wars sometimes end, like World War I, when the combatants run out of men and material to fight with.
You think that's a realistic possibility?
This is a colonial war. Hopefully Europe's last. It's been going on for too long. Two and a half years. But most colonial wars take about a decade. Anything shorter than that will be a bonus. Personally, I think that Russia will start running out of resources in about 18 months to two years.
It sounds to me that if it takes another 18 months, if it takes 10 years, you personally are comfortable. But as you pointed out with immigration, you're in a democratic society. You have to be respectful of public opinion. Is Polish public opinion prepared to support this war for years?
Polish public opinion is solid. European public opinion is solid. And from what I read, U.S. public opinion is actually solidly behind Ukraine, including opinion among grassroots in both political parties.
A little less supportive maybe in the United States than in the past. Still supportive overall, but a little less so than a year.
But when people hear about Putin's war crimes, stealing children to be Russified, I mean, how sicko do you have to be to do that?
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