DANIEL ESTRIN, HOST:
I'm in Tel Aviv, where I'm based as Mideast correspondent for NPR. And everywhere I walk in Israel these days, I see young women and men carrying assault rifles. They're soldiers. Many have been sent to Gaza this year. Some are wrestling with what they've experienced, but those are voices you don't often hear in public.
ITAY STERN, BYLINE: Wow.
AVSHALOM ZOHAR SAL: (Non-English language spoken).
ESTRIN: NPR producer Itay Stern and I met two soldiers who agreed to speak with us about what they saw this year in Gaza.
SAL: My name is Avshalom Zohar Sal, and I'm 27 years old.
ESTRIN: We visited Avshalom Zohar Sal in his pastoral kibbutz community, and we also took the elevator up a Tel Aviv high-rise.
JONATHAN SHTEIN: (Non-English language spoken) Jonathan Shtein (non-English language spoken).
ESTRIN: Jonathan Shtein is almost 40 and got back from Gaza about a week ago. Both are reservists who were called up to Gaza. They spent hundreds of days deployed in the war. Their views do not represent all soldiers. There's a range of attitudes in the military about how Israel has fought the war. But the stories you're about to hear are rare public reflections on some contentious aspects of the war.
SAL: In the beginning of the war, we really believe and thought that we do the right thing.
ESTRIN: Avshalom Zohar Sal was called up on October 7, the very same day Hamas led the attacks on Israel. Nearly 1,200 people were killed and some 250 taken hostage to Gaza. Then Israeli soldiers invaded Gaza, and soon, many hostages were released.
SAL: We see that in TV and say, oh, OK. We do the right thing. They're come back.
ESTRIN: When the cease fire broke down, though, he thought, they'd just fight a little bit more, and the hostages would come home.
SAL: But the war continue and continue.
ESTRIN: And he saw on the faces of many in his unit that morale was slipping. By this summer...
SAL: It was a lot different. (Speaking Hebrew).
ESTRIN: He says, "the soldiers were numb." Nearly 400 Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza. More than 45,000 Palestinians have been killed according to Gaza health officials. The U.N. says nearly everyone in Gaza has been displaced from their homes, and there's severe hunger. Gazans now live off humanitarian aid, trucked in and controlled by Israel.
SAL: I think the first time that I saw in my eyes, thousands of people running to trucks and humanitarian aid - it was insane.
ESTRIN: It was insane, he says. He saw crowds of Palestinians rushing toward the trucks, jumping on to grab food, and they were sent flying in the air as the convoy barrelled forward. He says humanitarian aid delivery has been chaotic.
SAL: (Speaking Hebrew).
ESTRIN: He says a lower level soldier like him could cancel a sensitive aid delivery with just an hour's notice. The U.S. and U.N. agencies blame Israel for restricting aid into Gaza. The Israeli Defense Ministry says it started a new coordination system with aid organizations a few months ago to improve the process.
The other soldier we met, Jonathan Shtein, says when he and his team would accompany aid convoys into Gaza, some soldiers backed out of the mission, especially in the beginning of the war.
SHTEIN: (Through interpreter) It becomes a dilemma for everyone. We need to protect these trucks and make sure they get in, but no one asks us what we think. We all debate about it. Are we feeling our enemy, or are we taking care of the civilian population in Gaza?
ESTRIN: There are a few images that of Avshalom Zohar Sal can't get out of his mind. He's still sickened by the first decomposing body he saw, a man from Islamic Jihad. And he thinks a lot about the time soldiers shot an 80-year-old civilian in the leg. He'd approached an area troops had declared a no-go zone.
SAL: (Through interpreter) And the paramedic that was there tried to save him. He died in her hands. It was really difficult and hard for her. And the other soldiers - they were like, oh, it's just another dead Arab guy. So they didn't care that much.
ESTRIN: There have been many videos soldiers have posted online from Gaza, displaying callous violence. The military has denounced these posts, which have been dubbed revenge videos.
Can I ask you about revenge? Did the soldiers you served with - did you feel that you were operating out of a sense of revenge?
SAL: (Speaking Hebrew).
ESTRIN: He says he saw soldiers from other units vowing revenge for the October 7 attack. He says he saw acts of indiscriminate shooting, a desire to cause destruction. And he kept seeing this one graffiti message.
SAL: Graffiti (speaking Hebrew).
ESTRIN: It said, expulsion, occupation, settlement, a call to expel Palestinians, occupy Gaza and establish Israeli settlements. He says, "this wasn't why I entered Gaza. I came to rescue the hostages and defeat Hamas rule."
We asked the military for comment on all these allegations. In a statement, the military said it disciplines soldiers for behavior that doesn't follow the military's protocols. It says it can't comment on specific allegations without dates, locations and names. One of the soldiers worried that providing those details could end up getting him in trouble with the military.
SAL: (Through interpreter) To be suddenly in front of a computer, it numbs your senses more than being in the field. And that's what scares me the most. It's a video game.
ESTRIN: Israel is now conducting a major offensive in North Gaza that's driven out tens of thousands of Palestinians. Jonathan Shtein says it was hard witnessing the masses walking on foot.
SHTEIN: (Through interpreter) They show you some appreciation, like, when you give them a bottle of water. A lot of people say, [expletive] Hamas. You don't know if they are saying it to suck up to you or I guess they are just very afraid of you.
(Through interpreter) You can't sleep at night or be at peace after such experiences.
ESTRIN: He said, witnessing the war so up close stays with you.
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