LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Leaders in Syria and Israel are navigating a transformed Middle East. In Syria, new leaders are settling in, working out relations with their neighbors and, just recently, dealing with a diplomatic dustup - comments a high-ranking Syrian official made to NPR regarding better relations with Israel. For more, we go to NPR's Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv and NPR's Hadeel Al-Shalchi in Damascus. Good morning, and Happy New Year to you both.
HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, BYLINE: Happy New Year.
DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Happy New Year, Leila.
FADEL: Hadeel, let's start with you. These comments were made to you in a recent interview you did with the governor of Damascus. Tell us exactly what he told you.
AL-SHALCHI: Right. So we met the governor of Damascus, Maher Marwan, in his office, and we spent an hour speaking to him about a range of things. And he wrapped up saying he wanted to bring up the topic of Israel.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
MAHER MARWAN: (Speaking Arabic).
AL-SHALCHI: He said, Syria didn't want to do anything that would, quote, "meddle with Israel's security." He said he wanted peace and that there exists a people who wanted coexistence. And then he went further. He said he wanted the United States to influence Israel to accept this message. And a U.S. official told NPR that the message had, in fact, been relayed. And this actually kind of echoes what we have heard before. Marwan's boss and the leader of the new interim government called Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS - his name is Ahmed al-Sharaa - said something like this before a few weeks ago. He said Syria did not want conflict with Israel. But the governor's comments to NPR was the first time they said publicly that they'd reached out to the U.S. offering a message to Israel.
FADEL: Now, these comments are coming at a time where Israel has been striking Syria, were saying they're worried that weapons will end up in the wrong hands, taking land in the Golan Heights. Also, though, Syria has never had relations with Israel. So, Daniel, could you just take us through why this kind of gesture from a Syrian leader is, frankly, kind of unprecedented.
ESTRIN: It is the kind of public statement that you could never have imagined, for the entire history of Israel's existence, coming from Syria. Syria battled Israel in Israel's founding war in 1948 and has fought against Israel in several wars since. Syria lost some of its land in the Golan Heights to Israel. For decades, travel has been forbidden between the countries. There were some secret efforts at peace negotiations over the years, but they failed. There is some new reporting now coming out in the Israeli media that Israel's top spymaster was supposed to meet the Syrian dictator, Bashar al-Assad, just a few years ago. But Assad backed out.
And, you know, then fast-forward to last month when the Syrian regime fell, Israel said it needed to protect itself. As you mentioned, it bombed much of Syria's air defenses and its military capabilities. Its troops captured some Syrian land along Israel's border. So it is stunning to hear this top Syrian official tell NPR that - you know, what Syria has never said publicly, that they don't want to be at war with Israel.
FADEL: And how are Israelis responding?
ESTRIN: Well, his comments made headlines across Israeli media. And I spoke with a Middle East researcher at the Moshe Dayan Center in Israel, Uzi Rabi, and he told me this news is huge symbolically, but practically, he is skeptical.
UZI RABI: Very, very remarkable. But to have full diplomatic relations, well, for me, it's too good to be true, even though I would love having that kind of a thing here in the Middle East.
ESTRIN: You know, he would love to see Israel's embassy open in Damascus, but he knows that neither country would want that now. It would be the target of radical Islamist groups in Syria. And as for Israel, they have responded very cautiously to this new gesture from the Damascus governor. The foreign ministry told NPR that Syria's new ruling power is a, quote, "extremist Islamist regime with historical ties to al-Qaida." But that Israeli researcher I spoke with said he could imagine, maybe in the coming months, Israel and Syria trying to work out some quiet security arrangements along the border.
FADEL: And, Hadeel, what about in Syria? How were the governor's comments received?
AL-SHALCHI: Well, NPR's conversation with Marwan also swept the Arab media. You know, major Arabic news outlets aired his statements from the interview we published. There was a lot of criticism on social media. And it caused such a backlash that the government distanced itself from the governor's comments. And then the governor issued a video statement walking the comments back. But, you know, while Syrians were perhaps shocked at the surprising comments, the mood was muted among some people I spoke with. For example, one restaurant owner told me he'd take peace with Israel any day over relations with Iran, which used to fund the Assad regime.
FADEL: And what about Syrian analysts who are following this debate?
AL-SHALCHI: I found one who would talk to me, but he asked to not be named, which shows you how sensitive the topic is. He said things are too chaotic, especially when it came to Israel, so you had to be careful with what you said. And this analyst told me that while many Syrians grew up with the Palestinian cause and believed in the resistance against Israel, things have changed dramatically after 13 years of civil war. He said Syrians are now looking inwards. They're tired. They want peace inside Syria. They want to rebuild their cities. They want to find their missing loved ones.
UNIDENTIFIED ANALYST: (Speaking Arabic).
AL-SHALCHI: The analyst said Syrians are prepared for peace with Israel because Syrians can't afford any more losses.
FADEL: Now, the governor, as we heard from both of you, caused quite a stir with his comments, then tried to walk them back. What do you make of that? I mean, this is a very new government. I mean, is this growing pains? How do you see it?
AL-SHALCHI: Yeah. Well, the governor definitely caused a genuine political crisis for the new Syrian leadership when he said HTS wanted peace. But look, you know, he didn't suggest full diplomatic relations with Israel. He didn't suggest a handshake on the White House lawn. But he was saying, Syria is not your enemy. Please don't attack us. His actual comments to NPR, though, and the firestorm it set off afterwards, shows how HTS is stumbling. It's trying to find its feet as a political party navigating the international political waters. Israel is always going to be a question they have to face. It's unavoidable - part of the conversation in the Middle East.
ESTRIN: And I should say that, you know, the way Israel sees itself now is as a regional superpower reshaping the Middle East. After the Hamas attacks October 7 of 2023, Israel launched a military campaign across the region last year. It set off this domino effect that led to the fall of the Syrian regime. And so now Israel is trying to take advantage of these tectonic shifts, trying to build new alliances in the region.
FADEL: NPR's Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv and NPR's Hadeel Al-Shalchi in Damascus. Thank you both.
AL-SHALCHI: You're welcome.
ESTRIN: You're welcome.
(SOUNDBITE OF DONYA WILLIAMS' "THIS WILL DESTROY YOU") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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