STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Jimmy Carter, who lies in state today at the Capitol, was a small-D Democratic leader. That means embracing debate and criticism, which Carter did during his presidency and long afterward. When he gave his opinion about Israel, it provoked opinions about him.
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JIMMY CARTER: As you know, I've been called an antisemite. I've been called a bigot. I've been called senile. I've been called a liar. I've been called a plagiarist.
INSKEEP: That was Carter in 2007 on NPR. He'd written a book titled "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." Though Carter once had brokered a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, critics denounced his use of the word apartheid. They combed the book for errors, and people connected with his own Carter Center resigned. So I asked him if he would take our questions. We now play the main part of our conversation, which feels as relevant today as it did in 2007.
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INSKEEP: Could you just make, briefly, the best case you can for why apartheid is the right word to use?
CARTER: Well, I'll try to make a perfect case. Apartheid is a word that is an accurate description of what has been going on in the West Bank, and it's based on the desire or avarice of a minority of Israelis for Palestinian land. It's not based on racism. Those caveats are very clearly made in the book. This is a word that's a very accurate description of the forced separation within the West Bank of Israelis from Palestinians and the total domination and oppression of Palestinians by the dominant Israeli military.
INSKEEP: Why not just describe that rather than bring in this word that's freighted with so much history from another place?
CARTER: It would be hard to give that definition that I've just given you in a title of a book. The book is quite descriptive.
INSKEEP: Would you describe for us, simply because the book has been criticized for its details, how did you write the book?
CARTER: How did I write it? On my word processor. On a computer. I wrote every word myself. I never have had any coauthors. I based it on my, you might say, 33 years of experience. I doubt - even when I was - after I left office, I traveled extensively in the Middle East. I doubt that any other prominent human being has been blessed with such a great opportunity as I have to actually know what's going on there.
INSKEEP: Well, you've been challenged in your recollections of meetings, for example, with Hafez al-Assad, the one-time president of Syria. And it's been alleged that your description of Assad makes him look more reasonable and the Israelis look less reasonable than might actually been the case. What was your version based on? Did you go back to notes and other documents that you had from the time?
CARTER: Of course. I began meeting with Hafez al-Assad when I was president, trying to get him to support a peace process. And on one occasion, he was - invited me to meet with him and his entire family, and I met all his children and got to know them.
INSKEEP: But when you recollect, for example, your 1990 meeting with them, at which you asked about the Golan Heights...
CARTER: Yes.
INSKEEP: ...How that dispute might be settled with Israel, were you working from your own notes?
CARTER: Of course. My own notes. And my wife takes notes when I'm there, and we have been very careful to make sure that all those descriptions are accurate.
INSKEEP: Ken Stein, as you know, former colleague of yours at the Carter Center, has alleged that his recollection of that meeting is somewhat different.
CARTER: Ken Stein was a professor that I took along with me, and Ken has attended some of the meetings with me. And the more highly sensitive meetings, I was the only one there except my wife to take notes.
INSKEEP: Oh, you're saying that he did not go to all the meetings that you went to.
CARTER: Of course. That's right.
INSKEEP: There's also been some criticism of a sentence on page 213 of your book.
CARTER: That was a terribly worded sentence, which implied obviously in a ridiculous way that I approved terrorism and terrorist acts against Israeli citizens.
INSKEEP: The sentence said that Palestinians and Arabs in general should end suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism when international laws...
CARTER: That when...
INSKEEP: ...And the ultimate goals of the road map for peace are accepted by Israel.
CARTER: Yeah, the when was obviously a crazy and stupid word. My publishers have been informed about that. They've changed the sentence in all future editions of the book.
INSKEEP: You mentioned that you've been labeled an antisemite.
CARTER: Yeah.
INSKEEP: You do use the word apartheid in the title of your book, which...
CARTER: Which is accurate. Go ahead.
INSKEEP: ...Defenders of Israel regarded as a label that called into a lot of bad associations. Whether you agree with any specific charge there, would you agree that kind of labeling is not very productive?
CARTER: I think it's productive. I had two basic hopes for this book. One, that it would stimulate peace talks. Second, it would reveal for the first time to the American public the horrible oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people, and that it would precipitate for the first time any substantive debate on these issues.
INSKEEP: And one other thing, Mr. President. One of the most fascinating parts of this book to me is an area that has not been as controversial. It's one of the earlier passages in which you describe a time when you were governor of Georgia and you were invited to Israel by the government of Israel to look around, and you ended up standing on the banks of the Jordan River. Could you describe what you did there and how that affected you?
CARTER: I was given complete freedom to go where I wished. There was a security border along the Jordan River, and there was a gate, and I got permission from one of the guards to go. And I waded out in the Jordan River at the same site that I felt from my own knowledge of Christianity that Jesus Christ was baptized. So we just immersed ourselves in the culture and biblical history and current political affairs of Israel in that visit.
INSKEEP: And if I may just read a sentence from that passage. You write, (reading) at the end of this visit, we left convinced that the Israelis were dominant but just, the Arabs quiescent because their rights were being protected, and the political and military situation destined to remain stable until land was swapped for peace.
CARTER: That's exactly right. And the premise then - you have to realize at that time, there were only 1,500 total Israeli settlers in the entire occupied territories. This was before the massive Israeli confiscation of land and colonization of the choice sites. But the premise then, undisputed, was that Israel would soon withdraw from the occupied territories. And so that impression that I had was quite accurate at the time.
INSKEEP: Can you think of one event or a series of events that has caused your view to change so dramatically over those years?
CARTER: Yes. The apparently permanent acquisition, confiscation and colonization of choice sites throughout the West Bank. These the Israelis have taken away from the Palestinians, apparently with ideas by some Israelis to keep those areas permanently. That's the root of their problem that prevents peace coming to the Mid East.
INSKEEP: Well, Mr. President, thanks for taking the time.
CARTER: I've enjoyed it. Thank you.
INSKEEP: Former President Jimmy Carter questioned on NPR in 2007. His funeral is tomorrow. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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