Audacious with Chion Wolf: Transcript for 'Actors with facial differences discuss what it means to be seen'
Audacious with Chion Wolf
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Chion Wolf 00:03
From Connecticut Public Radio in Hartford, this is Audacious. I'm Chion Wolf. In the 2018 movie, Happy Face, a troubled young man joins a support group for people who have facial differences.
Movie clip 00:16
Who's next? Me? I just want to be a good person. Why do... Do you think you're a bad person? Augustine? Oh.....I'm disgusting.
Chion Wolf 00:35
Now this young man does not have a facial difference. He fakes it using scotch tape and gauze. But most of the Happy Face cast do have facial differences. Some of their conditions make it more challenging to articulate words, but that doesn't take away from the performers truly exceptional acting. In fact, as you'll hear, their facial differences in many ways adds to their skill set on screen. Today, we meet two actors from the movie. David Roche is a humorist, a public speaker and he's a filmmaker. He was born with a vascular malformation that resulted in him losing his lower lip and some of his teeth. He's also developed a constellation of purple veins mostly on the left side of his face. We'll hear about what it felt like to be a prominent cast member in Happy Face and what it's like for him to publicly speak in front of a particularly scary audience, middle schoolers. But first, let's meet actor, author and public speaker, Dawn Shaw. She was born with a rare tumor called a teratoma sticking out of the left side of her cheek and neck. Now, it's usually made up of organ tissue from lower parts of the body.
Dawn Shaw 01:50
Now mine happened to be brain tissue. So I like to think that I had so many extra brains that they were all coming up a side of my face, or you could look at it another way. It's like, "Oh, so that's where they all went."
Chion Wolf 02:03
Ahah! Alright, will you describe what your face looks like now?
Dawn Shaw 02:07
Alright well, let me say that when they first removed the tumor, they didn't do any other damage. The complication came when the tumor started to grow back. And that's when we discovered that the tumor was wrapped around other parts of my face that were kind of important to my bone, nerve and muscle. And so, when they took the tumor out the second time, they took out bone, nerve and muscle. That left my face half paralyzed. And so it's a little droopy. The nice part is, it doesn't have pronounced lines. I mean, I don't get age lines. But on the other hand, I mean, I get droop lines. So I guess it's kind of the same thing. There are teeth there. The teeth don't line up on that side, I've had a lot of orthodontic work, and actually surgery that moved my jaw forward. My eye doesn't blink on its own, so it stays open. I'm mostly deaf, in my left ear.
Chion Wolf 03:14
How do your parents do, with making you feel seen, with making you feel loved, with any sort of insecurities that you may have been developing? And the way that inevitably, because people are people, they would treat you. How'd your parents do?
Dawn Shaw 03:27
I knew I was supported. My dad was actually very defensive of me. When he would catch kids staring at me, he would like stare back. And he was a big guy die, so he was kind of intimidating. It was nice, because I felt loved. But it was... the bad side of that is that's what it taught me to do. And it took a long time for me to do things differently when it came to interacting with kids that were staring at me. I just wanted to filter. I just didn't notice so much if people were staring at me, unless they were obvious about it.
Chion Wolf 04:03
When they were obvious about it, how would they make it obvious?
Dawn Shaw 04:06
A lot of the times kids tug on their mom's sleeves and say, "What's wrong with that girl's face or what's wrong with that woman's face?" or whatever, however old I was at the time. I, actually looking back, now I actually kind of find it amusing. Because I realize, I mean, Mom doesn't know. But, the kids think that mom knows and so, the mom, yeah, and probably like, nowadays, the things that I appreciate the most is when Mom has asked that question and Mom says, "I don't know, why don't you go ask." And we have a choice. We have a choice about how we respond. And we can either be helpful or we can be negative and turn away and not talk to people. And it's so funny because I think as long as you make any attempt, it humanizes you, because they almost instantly lose interest and go off and do something else.
Chion Wolf 05:09
I think about how our faces tell stories, and also how our faces affect the people around us. You said something once, that I'd never thought about, you said that "People aren't good at giving feedback to someone who looks different." That basically they would let you get away with behavior, but won't say anything because they don't want to, maybe they perceive they would be adding to your own discomfort. I would love to hear more about it, I'd never thought of it that way.
Dawn Shaw 05:44
It's true, people that are different, and it doesn't even have to be a facial difference. But people that have differences, in a wheelchair, if people that have had something happened to them, people don't know how to interact with them. They don't know what to say to them. And I think that, when people behave inappropriately, there is a response that says, that doesn't want to correct them. If you have someone in a social situation, and they say something to you that is hurtful or mean or negative. Oftentimes, if it's somebody we know, if it's a friend, we're gonna say, "Hey, you know, you shouldn't say that or that was hurtful or" I mean, unfortunately, not enough people do that. They don't call people out on their BS. And I think people with differences are sometimes allowed to get away with essentially bad behavior. And yet, again, I'll turn it around, and say well "Everybody, nobody wants to be with me, nobody likes me." And that's like, "Yeah, nobody wants to be with you. Because you're a jerk. I mean, just because you have a difference. It doesn't make you magical or special." And that's another myth. I mean, we see that so often, where we actually almost put people with differences on pedestals. Like they're some magnificent, wonderful person. And sometimes, we're just a******s, I know you're gonna bleep that but it's true.
Chion Wolf 07:18
Is that sort of like when people call you an inspiration? How do you feel about that word?
Dawn Shaw 07:21
I actually do not mind being called an inspiration. I look at being an inspiration as something positive, now it can be condescending, and I think if it's condescending, that's not good.
Chion Wolf 07:38
Some people have said, "Well, I want to be an inspiration for what I've accomplished, what I've done, what I stand for, not because I have a disability."
Dawn Shaw 07:47
If you actually live in such a way that evokes positivity, that people have a reason to be inspired, to be - to want to emulate what you do, that is important. But if you're an inspiration, just because you exist, just because you've learned to function in society, although even learning to function in society can be a challenge and if you're doing it successfully. A lot of people envy my confidence, for example, believe me I'm not always confident. And that's the other thing that I have to emphasize is, people with physical differences, facial difference, and otherwise, we're human beings. Sometimes, hopefully, we are going to be nice, wonderful, kind, generous people. But other times, we're going to be hurt, angry, disappointed. We have to allow people to be human. So, somebody's going to stare at me and that's normal. I mean, it's not like I don't notice people that have other differences. "Oh, that guy only has half an arm." You think I don't notice just ‘cause I have a facial difference? I mean, I feel more like I'm in a community with that person, because I can identify with some of what that person probably goes through, and I certainly don't want to be that guy. And I'm not going to be the one staring at him.
Chion Wolf 09:22
So you're saying that, people with visible disabilities are often two-dimensionalized into heroes who are always so proud and inspiring and in a good mood and, and, and, and. Whereas, turns out you are a whole complex, multi-dimensional human being.
Dawn Shaw 09:41
Yeah, or you have the opposite, where you have movies that portray us as villains. That drives me freaking crazy. I hate that. I probably would have enjoyed Wonder Woman a lot more if the villain hadn't had a facial difference. The other aspect is often, the people who are different are comic relief, and that's almost as bad. We're the clowns. Although, I have to admit, having a sense of humor is important. And sometimes, that's how we would normalize ourselves if we- we almost have to be better than, or funnier than, or more interesting than, or smarter than, because we need a way to stand out and or to be normal, to be looked at, as people.
Chion Wolf 10:31
Now, there had to have been a moment before you became a motivational speaker, before you became an author, before you became an advocate. You know, you weren't, I imagine 12 years old thinking, "Ah, that's what I'm gonna do!"
Dawn Shaw 10:43
Yeah, heh
Chion Wolf 10:43
Will you talk about, how you overall went from "Mmmm that's not a direction my life is gonna go into," to "This is going to be something I regularly do." To not only speak for myself, but speak for this whole community in the ways that you can.
Dawn Shaw 11:03
I've had a talent for writing, since I was very little. I've always liked performance, like theater, but I've always liked- I, I guess I was kind of always have. I just always liked performing and- But as I grew up, I formulated the belied that I couldn't do that, because of my appearance. No one's ever going to have me as an actress. No one's going to put me in front of a camera. But I've never been afraid of being in front of people, of speaking in front of people. And I realized, that is a gift. I've worked very hard to make sure that I speak clearly and can be understood. I know that there are a lot of people in the facial difference community, some of whom are my friends, that that is more of a challenge for them.
Chion Wolf 11:53
When you see, in a movie, someone with a visible facial difference, and it is usually either a villain or part of the story. Like, this actor had to have a visible facial difference because it's part of the story. It's part of what we're talking about. Is there a part of you that wishes there were movies with actors who have visible facial differences, and the visible facial difference is never addressed and has no even relevance to the story.
Dawn Shaw 12:27
I think that would be ideal. Good characters in a story have backstories, it would be fair to explore where that difference came from at some point. But it wouldn't necessarily have to be in the first episode. Human beings are just so caught up in physical appearance. But the one thing that I know from my personal experience, is that once you are visible to an audience, they're going to spend a couple of minutes just staring at you. And that's a liberty they have when you're on a movie screen or a TV screen. But then, they're not going to focus on it as much. I'm not going to say they're going to forget about it, they're not. Because I mean, that's, how do we recognize people? We recognize people by their faces. Oh, you want to hear the ultimate irony? I am horrible with faces. And yet, everybody recognizes me. And they'll come up and be like, "Hi, Dawn!" And I'm like, "Hi!" And in my mind I'm like, "I have no idea who you are." And usually I just have to be very open and straightforward and say, "Can you remind, haha, me your name, please?
Chion Wolf 13:43
Now, actually, you've your finger on something really interesting. In some ways, in many ways, you are outstanding. In the literal sense, you're very easy to remember. At least, whether they know your name or not, it's easy to remember if they've met you before. And that means that you can't really fly under the radar. You can't really blend in or like maybe get away with something.
Dawn Shaw 14:07
Oh! You want to hear a good one?
Chion Wolf 14:09
Of course I do.
Dawn Shaw 14:10
My husband, Ian and I, we go into a restaurant twice. And we're regulars because everybody recognizes me. Now, he is like the average older white guy. No one would ever remember him unless he's been married like 20 times. But twice and it's like, "Oh hi!" Now, if he went in without me, they wouldn't have a clue.
Chion Wolf 14:33
Is there some part of you that…
Dawn Shaw 14:35
…loves it? Yeah! Ahaha.
Chion Wolf 14:39
Hahaha, is there any part of you that doesn't love it, that wishes you could be just another face, just another face?
Dawn Shaw 14:48
Two things come to mind. The first one is, "Well if I've been a jerk. I don't want people to remember me." But the second thing that comes to mind is during COVID, when we were in masks, I actually felt like part of my identity had been taken away. That was weird. My face is part of my identity.
Chion Wolf 15:15
That was author, actor and public speaker, Dawn Shaw. When we get back!
Dawn Shaw 15:20
On one hand, physically, I stand out and I have to do more to make myself human. But on the other hand, sometimes it's nice to stand out.
Chion Wolf 15:31
Plus, how actor David Roche sees the power of being an actor with a facial difference.
David Roche 15:37
We, well I just say, we just have access to a better understanding of the human condition.
Chion Wolf 15:48
I'm Chion Wolf, this is Audacious. Stay with me. This is Audacious. I'm Chion Wolf. This is the second installment of our series featuring people with facial differences. In a little bit, we'll meet David Roche whom we first saw in the 2018 film, Happy Face. The movie features an ensemble of actors with facial differences, both inherited and acquired. Dawn Shaw is one of those actors. She's also the author of three books, including her memoir, "Facing up to it." For a long time, Dawn was the only person she knew who had a facial difference. Hers was caused by a rare tumor she was born with called a teratoma. But eventually, Dawn got connected with a Canadian nonprofit, About Face. They offer supportive programming, advocacy, and education about and for people with facial differences. One of the programs they offer is called Camp Trailblazers.
Dawn Shaw 16:51
I went to one of those. And it was the first time that I had ever been with an entire group that had facial differences. Now this is gonna sound really conceited, but it also kind of took away a little with my uniqueness. But on the other hand, it was wonderful to be able to meet and talk to people. And I mean, we are all just people, normal people, and interact with people who have had similar experiences. I mean, there's nothing like that. So even though I was a little trepidatious about actually going, I'm so glad I did.
Chion Wolf 17:36
Earlier, you were talking about how when you're wearing a mask during COVID, that it felt like it took a part of your identity away. I wonder if, if you woke up one morning, and you were in an alternate timeline, another dimension, and the condition you were born with never happened. But you knew it. How do you think you'd feel about being in that new timeline?
Dawn Shaw 18:10
I'd be pretty lost. I wouldn't know how to interact. "How do I make myself stand out?" I mean, it's kind of weird to think that, on one hand, physically, I stand out and I have to do more to make myself human. But on the other hand, sometimes it's nice to stand out. I mean, I think as a professional speaker, for example, it gives me an advantage. Because I don't have to sell people, on my experience. I just include a picture. It does at least make my job a little easier in convincing people that I have a story. If I had that option, I wouldn't do it. And maybe it's because I'm 57. If I were 22, I might jump on that opportunity. But once you get to a certain age, it's kind of like, that's how you are, you're pretty molded. I mean, it doesn't mean you can't change. I don't believe for a minute that people can't change things about themselves, I've been working on myself for decades. But in that alternate universe, would I get used to it? Probably. And I have to admit, there's a part of you that's been kind of curious on what I would look like, if this had never happened. And technically, I suppose but there's ways to do that now. But there's also that part of me that says, "Do I really want to know?" It's kind of like, "Do you, if you knew, if you could know the exact day that you would die, would you want to?” And, you know, we have to play the cards we're dealt as human beings. And I really feel like, this is me. And if I was in that alternate timeline, it's still me, but it's different. And all the experiences that I had that shaped my personality, and that shaped my attitude, shaped the person I am. They would not have happened, most of them would not have happened. So I'd be in this body of somebody who I really don't know anything about them.
Chion Wolf 20:40
Well, I've asked everything that I planned on, is there anything that I left out that you want to make sure you say?
Dawn Shaw 20:47
One thought that I did not finish is that you asked like, "How did I become, how did I transition to where I am now talking about my life and being a speaker? "And that transition actually came while I was writing my book, it took me seven years to write my memoir. And it was life changing, because I had to scrutinize myself and my life and my relationships in ways that I never had before. And it wasn't always fun. I actually, there were a lot of emotions that went into that process of putting the book together. And it was during that time that I realized, I had a story. I had something that people actually wanted to hear. And even if they don't take it to heart right away, even if they can't apply it right away, sometimes five years later, they might remember something that I said and it might have an impact.
Chion Wolf 21:47
Well, Dawn Shaw, thank you so much for talking with me.
Dawn Shaw 21:51
All right, well, thank you so much for having me, I've stretched like super awesome. I love this kind of stuff.
Chion Wolf 21:57
We'll have a link to all of Dawn's work at ctpublic.org/audacious. David Roche was one of Dawn's cast mates in the movie Happy Face. In addition to being an actor, he's a humorist, public speaker and author. His critically acclaimed autobiography and one-man show, "The Church of 80% Sincerity" has taken him all around the world, including the White House, and his new book, "Standing at the Back Door of Happiness," is coming out on April 20. Now, when you check out David's CV, it lists his hair as gray/salt and pepper, eyes are blue, height is 5'6" and face: Unforgettable. I asked him to tell me the story of his unforgettable face.
David Roche 22:42
Okay, I am one day old. There is a slight discoloration on my left eyelid. The doctor says, "Do not worry. This is just, it will be gone in a day or two." Well, this is like 20,000 days later and not only has it not disappeared but it's grown a lot. It started growing very much when I was a year old and no doctor within lanes knew what to do. So I ended up at the Mayo Clinic and there my lower lip was removed. And I had heavy radiation therapy, which I was born in 1944, and radiation therapy was so exciting and, and they did radiation that was neither measured nor focused. So it made the whole lot of part of my face start glowing. I lost my teeth. So, what you see when you look at me is purple blotches, actually it's a very attractive color.
Chion Wolf 24:07
I'd like to hear about, though you were born looking this way and it has evolved over your life, what was it like when you first really recognized, "Oh, I look different than pretty much everybody."
David Roche 24:22
I would say as I entered puberty. And there was one incident that happened. Worst thing that ever happened. I'm 13 years old. I want to be a priest, I go to visit the seminary that's at the University of Notre Dame, The Holy Cross Priests. Being interviewed by two priests. The two priests leave me alone, I'm sitting there and, you know, there's a big statue of the Blessed Virgin on the basis, a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus with blood streaming down his face. And they come back, and they tell me their side, that ratio that says it accesses your appearance, "The congregation will not be able to have respect for you." So, in Catholicism, when you have a face stamp, especially back then it was Iike the word of God. So I heard God telling me that I was a monster. That was when it really hit me.
Chion Wolf 25:35
It's so obvious that, you know, if you follow Jesus, and you're raised in this tradition, that you are a child of God, and you are made in His image. And so the idea that you wouldn't be anything other than divine doesn't make sense. But it just goes to show how powerful people, in positions of power, in the church or anywhere, be it your parents, your teachers, priests, they have this power. How do you feel now about your relationship with God and there by your relationship with yourself and this appearance, that's been a part of your life for your entire human existence?
David Roche 26:14
Okay, let's fast forward about 60 years. I was a communist. So 12 years, a dedicated, strong cadre. I wanted to help people. That's why I decided to become a communist. I became a communist because I was one of the founders of the childcare and single-parent resource center in San Francisco, and I saw what life was like for single mothers, mothers, women. I felt like, there is no choice but to become a communist. And, anyway, at the time, I was drinking, I was smoking cigarettes and I was eating crap and drinking a lot of coffee. Anyway, over a few years, I didn't realize that what I needed on a daily basis was nature, loving relationships, family and seniority, and creativity. And all of a sudden, that seemed so obvious to me. And so I felt like, "Okay, good! Now I understand." Soon after that, I got on stage. What was I doing? I'm not so sure, I'm standing out there, alone in front of a couple hundred people with my facial difference. And people like it immediately, I'm just a natural, I have a great presence. Then I learned something else about my face, I learned that everybody feels disfigured and donning that face inside, there's dyslexia, neurodivergence, something that people feel is wrong with themselves. Everybody feels that way. And here I am, on stage. I start the show by saying, "Okay, when I prompt the what's the theme point, I want you all to ask, "What happened to your face?" And they all say it, because that's the elephant, you know. And in about 10 to 15 minutes, I'm the shapeshifter, I change from someone who is virtually different, into someone who's cute, and attractive, and funny. I don't examine anything else, about my face. I'm happy. And now I'm on Zoom, and I'm staring at my own goddamn face all the time. Aaaaaah! Yeah.
Chion Wolf 29:37
Will you tell me how you got involved with being in the cast of the movie Happy Face. How did that happen?
David Roche 29:44
By then, I had about 25 years experience. I was like the initiate, the beginning of facial difference and arts, and disability arts as well. It all started back then. So this guy, Alex, is looking for performers with facial difference and then he asked would I audition? So I did, I auditioned on Zoom! And I didn't think much of it then, and then like a year and a half later, he follows up, "Well, we're doing the shoot." And Alex and the rest of the cast were extremely supportive and very very helpful. And he invited me to give more of the character. So that was nice.
Chion Wolf 30:36
You have advocated for people who have visible facial differences to be cast in films, stage, any creative outlet. And I wonder, you know oftentimes when they are cast, what happened to their face or the story of their face is part of the story like it has to be addressed. Would it be better, in your opinion or some sort of win, if someone who had a visible facial difference was cast in a film and their face and whatever happened to it, or whatever explains why this face looks different isn't even a part of the story? It's almost irrelevant. Would that be something that you want?
David Roche 31:18
Here's the thing, who are facially disfigured as a role have access to a better understanding of the human condition. As for myself, it was a long and winding road that I had to find my duty inside myself and I knew it enough to get on stage so, I'm not a confident guy, okay? About this kind of thing. I mean they're out there doing stuff and there's lots of other people. Now there's an award, it's put out by the Children's Craniofacial Association in Dallas, the David Roche Award for Excellence and Advocacy. So I think yes, it's gonna happen, but it's going to surprise the hell out of me, hehe.
Chion Wolf 32:19
You have been referred to as "inspiring." How do you feel about, how do you feel about being called inspiring?
David Roche 32:28
It used to bother me. You know, there's that whole thing about Inspiration Porn. But I think that everybody needs inspiration, either inspiration in creativity in young women, young meaning less than 50, so you’re a young woman. And I get inspired by the San Francisco 49ers, you know, I love it, Golden State Warriors basketball. And my dad was a sports writer, so you know, my whole life was sports. So there's nobody who's immune to that. We all need it. We all like it. And the fact is, that it's just the people are inspired. They see someone you know, walking with crutches in the snow, "Wow. That's amazing." And in a sense, it is amazing. And, you know, the bad about it is when that's the only thing about you that is seen and noticed. So you're inspiring, and that's it.
Chion Wolf 33:43
They're two-dimensionalized.
David Roche 33:46
Yeah.
Chion Wolf 33:49
You've visited middle schools across the country with your "Love at Second Sight" presentation and you also produced a video, my producer for this episode, Jessica Severin de Martinez, watched it with her kids. And her seventh-grade daughter wants to know, "Were you nervous about standing in front of middle schoolers who are one of the most judgmental audiences of all time?"
David Roche 34:10
Hahahahaha, that's such a great question. At first, I was. This might be a little touchy here, but I was nervous because I was going back to being 12 years old, and I wanted the girls to think I was cool. Okay, so I'm standing up there, inside myself I'm 12 years old, and I'm trying to charm these 12-year-old girls. Jesus. Now, I'll tell you what kids like, they like funny, they like physical, and they don't want you to tell, or teach to them. Okay. So, and I often had kids run up to me and say, "Thank you for not telling us what to do." And so I'm trying to figure something out now, like I tell a story about being in the seventh grade, and playing spin the bottle. So in the story, the first thing spin goes to me and the cutest girl at our Lady of Bay School is across and we're supposed to kiss. And she says, "Not you." And she reaches out to spin again. And, so when I say "Kids, I know that I felt so bad. So I said, "Patty, I know you want me" and the kids, it just dissolves them in laughter cause they know exactly what I'm talking about.
Chion Wolf 35:53
I know that you can only really speak for yourself with this question. But, some people who have visible facial differences don't want to freak and talk about it. Don't ask them about it, don't bring it up, they don't want to talk about it, if they want to talk about it, they'll bring it up to you, and that's that. And some people with visible facial differences are like, "Yeah, absolutely asked me about it. Any questions at all, I'm an open book and I would rather you talk to me about it." How do you feel when you meet people maybe for the first time, and you're feeling like maybe there's a sort of tension there, a curiosity there. What, what would serve you best?
David Roche 36:28
I don't mind if people ask. The only time I'm wary is drunken adolescent males. And I don't like, at age four and five, that's a time when children are more aware of monsters. And so once in a while, I'll get a child that will see me and then run behind his or her mother. I don't like that. And sometimes I just say, "Oh, I'm just getting out of here." And other times, you know, I'll just sit and wait and nod and wait and see. You know, I don't know what I'm doing.
Chion Wolf 37:14
No one does.
David Roche 37:15
Yeah, thank you.
Chion Wolf 37:18
For those who are listening to this conversation who have a visible facial difference, and they are also really drawn to the stage, and theatre, and film and they see their potential, they see their current abilities, but maybe there's a bit of a hesitancy to go forward, maybe to go to school, to learn acting or to go for the auditions. What would you say to them?
David Roche 37:43
Do it. I, I've known people who've tried it and that hurt. But I also know other people, young people, who are just really stepping forward, taking a place in film, on stage, in the public's eye. Most often nowadays they post on social media. It's Tik Tok or Instagram. So yeah. Keep the faith. I don't know what more to say, I love you. I love you and I love what you're doing.
Chion Wolf 38:19
Well, David Roche, I love you, too. Thank you so much for talking with me.
David Roche 38:23
Oh, that was fun, any time!
Chion Wolf 38:26
Now after our conversation, I couldn't help but reconnect with David. I had some more questions for him. And we talked about things like:
David Roche 38:34
Having a facial difference is actually a blessing.
Chion Wolf 38:39
I'm Chion Wolf. This is Audacious, be right back. This is Audacious. I'm Chion Wolf. When actor, speaker, and author David Roche walks into a room, he's used to people staring. He was born with a vascular malformation that took his lower lip and gave him dark purple veins that have grown on the left side of his face, head, neck, throat and tongue. He talks about how he's seen and the importance of him being seen. In his educational film, "Love at Second Sight." He co-created it with his wife, Marlena Blavin and it's been presented to more than 200 schools.
David (clip from film) 39:33
I want you to stare at my face today. I'm going to talk about what it's like to look different and to see your vision, especially when I was about your age. So I need some support. I need some encouragement. Here's what I want. When I count to three and point, I want all of you to say, "What happened to your face?" Can you do that? 123
Children (clip from film) 40:01
What happened to your face?
David (clip from film) 40:05
Thank you.
Chion Wolf 40:07
Now, my original conversation with David led me to ponder some more questions for him. So a couple months after we first recorded, we reconnected. David!
David Roche 40:17
You haven't changed a bit!
Chion Wolf 40:19
Not a bit! It feels as though, it's been years. But look at us, we look exactly the same.
David Roche 40:25
And I just turned 80. (Chion claps) I'm the oldest Roche, in 200 years. The oldest one, longest lived, amazing huh?
Chion Wolf 40:40
That is amazing. All right, ready to hop in?
David Roche 40:44
Dun, dun, dun, dun. Let's go!
Chion Wolf 40:47
Okay, so there's a scene in the movie, Happy Face where you are in a pizza restaurant, and this guy comes up to you and says, "You look like Freddy Krueger" and awful things that I don't even want to repeat. And then you go up to him and you say
David (clip from Happy Face) 41:05
Is that all you got? IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?? TELL ME, IS. THAT. ALL. YOU. GOT?
Chion Wolf 41:15
It was, it was such an intense scene for me to just watch. And I couldn't help but wonder what it was like for you to film. What was it like for you to film that scene?
David Roche 41:27
It was very therapeutic, it was great to unload. But again, it made me, like strutting around. I was just like, kinda shaking, to do something like that, to have that kind of concentration. To look like I do, then you have to deal with being ostracized, being ostracized, being on the edge of society. So, in doing something like that, it's, it's something inside that happens. Yet, you don't even know what it is. But you feel it. And that was uh, just having an additional reaction to that sort of thing.
Chion Wolf 42:10
If you could flip a switch and have a face that is without these conditions, would you flip it?
David Roche 42:23
Okay, I have four daughters and they're all good-looking. If I should just try, six months of looking like one of my daughters, I will try that. Otherwise, this is me. This is me. And you know what, having a facial difference is actually a blessing. Because it forces you to look inside yourself and assign your value inside yourself. So, I think that those of us with facial differences have an advantage over you evil-faced people.
Chion Wolf 43:00
Hahahaha, I'd like to talk about your wife Marlena. She's told the story of how when she first heard your voice, you know, she pictured a certain kind of looking person. And then, when she saw you she said she felt shock and revulsion at the time and turned away, and but then she said, "You know, I think I saw David's soul." I hope that I someday find someone who sees my soul and loves it and feels like they want to be closer to it. I'd love your reflections on what being loved by her and with Marlena has done for you.
David Roche 43:50
First of all, I am someone who adores you. Okay?
Chion Wolf 43:56
Thanks, David.
David Roche 43:57
I'm serious now, you can call on me. We have a connection.
Chion Wolf 44:01
Thank you. I agree. Thank you.
David Roche 44:03
I love that, your expression. I love the way your face changes.
Chion Wolf 44:06
Thank you.
David Roche 44:08
Oh, now, it's pink! Hahahaha, it is. I mean, just asking a question like that, it's just a good question. I want every day to see Marlena and see what she is doing. She's an honored hospice volunteer. And she's right now helping to care for a friend who has dementia and who is about to slip away. That's outside of hospice, that's just who she is. So I see that and then she sees what I do, my writing, my recycling groups and things like that and we honor that in each other. And we support that in each other. I just want to point out too that Marlena and I have difference and we argue a lot. But we usually can end our arguments faster, thanks to me.
Chion Wolf 44:14
Hahaha, well I've asked everything I planned on. Is there anything that I missed that you want to make sure you say?
David Roche 44:30
I want you to say a prayer. Just go like this. I love the expression you get on your face. Yeah, I don't see, like, you're into the interview mode and you're, like, focused and now all of a sudden something like that comes up, and it's like, mmhm.
Chion Wolf 45:34
It's pretty, you know, it should not surprise me that you pay very close attention to faces.
David Roche 45:40
And that's a gift, actually, that you get faces. You're aware of how people look at you. Yeah. And I like your face, I like your faces. You have a good face. Just to say, the dimples help a lot.
Chion Wolf 45:55
Oh, thank you, you've got a great face too. I was looking forward to seeing it again.
David Roche 45:59
I know. I'm cute!
Chion Wolf 46:00
Yeah, you're wicked cute!
David Roche 46:02
Wicked cute, I like that a lot. And a prayer?
Chion Wolf 46:09
You got one?
David Roche 46:10
You!
Chion Wolf 46:13
I do the prayer?
David Roche 46:14
Yeah.
Chion Wolf 46:18
Okay. Okay. I don't think I've ever been asked to come up with a prayer before.
David Roche 46:26
Oh, no, it starts, honey.
Chion Wolf 46:32
May we...feel the peace, that is always in us. And may we share it with all whom we encounter.
David Roche 46:47
I'll take that any day of the week, honey. Yeah, yeah. I can see that, yeah, you're doing good.
Chion Wolf 47:02
Thank you, David Roche.
David Roche 47:04
Thank you. Take care, dear.
Chion Wolf 47:06
We're going out with one of David's favorite songs to dance to, "Proud Mary" by Tina Turner. Audacious is always so lovingly produced by Jessica Severin de Martinez, Khaleel Rahman, Meg Fitzgerald, Meg Dalton, and Catie Talarski at Connecticut Public Radio in Hartford. Visit ctpublic.org/audacious to see photos and links to our guests. And you can listen to the first installment we did on facial differences back in 2022, including a conversation with Zaid Garcia when he was two years old a candle fell onto his blanket when he was in bed and he suffered burns on 80% of his body and he has so very much to offer the world. That conversation and more at ctpublic.org/audacious or find us wherever you get your podcasts. Also, you need to know, we are doing our very first Audacious live event. We're doing a “Show and Tell” themed taping. So you're not required to but you're totally invited to bring an object you love telling the story of. That's going to be at Third Place by Half-Full Brewery at Stamford on March 13, at seven o'clock. Tickets are super limited and there is going to be swag. So visit ctpublic.org/showandtell. Stay in touch with me on Facebook, Instagram and Tiktok at Chion Wolf and you can always send an email to Audacious at ctpublic.org. Thanks for listening!