Audacious with Chion Wolf: Transcript for 'Stunt performers David Holmes and Jonathan Goodwin on life after paralysis'
Audacious with Chion Wolf
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Chion Wolf 00:02
From Connecticut Public Radio in Hartford, this is Audacious. I'm Chion Wolf. Stunt performers are one of a kind. People who do this work see stunts as art as inspiration and as an irresistible challenge on both small and big screens. Maybe it's because of the way they were raised, or the kind of entertainment that captured their young imaginations. Or maybe it's just the way their brains are wired. Stunt people are in total control of what their bodies can do, often thanks to a lifetime of dedication. And they don't just do their stunts once; they're usually rehearsed over and over again. And most of the time, things go perfectly according to plan. But sometimes, things can go very wrong. Even if the stunt person has done everything right. Today, you're going to meet David Holmes. You've probably seen him more times than you know. He was actor Daniel Radcliffe's stunt double for all eight Harry Potter movies until a stunt went wrong. But first, have you ever seen America's Got Talent? Well, there was a spin-off called America's Got Talent: Extreme. It featured a human cannonball, trapeze artists, fire dancers and stunt performers, and the winner will get a check for half a million dollars. Jonathan Goodwin was one of those contestants on that show. Since 2005, he's been an escapologist on over 10 TV shows. So for America's Got Talent: Extreme, he designed a hair-raising act involving cranes, cars, a straight jacket, and explosives that he hoped would win him the big prize. But on October 14, 2021, something went terribly wrong during rehearsal, and he was left critically injured and paralyzed. A life filled with movement and performance suddenly looked very, very different. But when we recorded this conversation back in May of 2023, I asked Jonathan, when did his passion for performance start?
Jonathan Goodwin 02:10
I read a book about Houdini when I was about seven. And you know, I guess like any kid I was fascinated with the character of a superhero. But the thing that was, you know, interesting to me about Houdini was that he was really, he really did the things that I read about. And once I realized you could do that for a job, I didn't really want to do anything else. So that was it. You know, I obsessed over Houdini in that, in that world for a while.
Chion Wolf 02:36
Now, it's one thing to see Houdini and read up on Houdini and be in awe of Houdini. But there's a difference between those feelings and actually putting your body on the line and discovering the limits of what you could do physically and also as a performer. So I'd love to hear about maybe how that transition happened with you some of your earlier memories of taking some creative risks with your body.
Jonathan Goodwin 03:02
I was working in television, I was working for a production company, and they made an escape artist special, which I didn't think was very good. And I was like a cocky 22-year-old, I think. And so I emailed the executive producer and I, I told him why I thought his show was bad. And he, rather than telling me where to go, he said, 'Put your money where your mouth is and show me.' And so I filmed something. And to that end my journey into it, you know, I'm not a normal sort of, I'm not an adrenaline junkie, I don't wake up in the morning and think I really want to set myself on fire. The thing that gets me up in the morning is creativity, is like having an idea and then manifesting it. And the challenge that I had a lot was that because the ideas that we're having were about, you know, dangerous things, it sort of fell to me to be the one to then, you know, actually make them happen.
Chion Wolf 03:59
I'd like to hear about October 14, 2021. Where do you start the story of that day?
Jonathan Goodwin 04:08
Well, there's some things that I can't talk about, because there's an ongoing OSHA investigation into what happened. And that is not resolved yet. And so I can't really get into the mechanics of why the stunt didn't work, but I can talk about, I can talk about the stunt. And also I can talk about what happened to me. And so I had this idea. It's almost like it was going to be called the Human Newton's Cradle, where we had three cranes, all with the jibs pointing in the same place, and I'm hanging from the middle crane. So I'm 30 feet in the air upside down in a straight jacket, over an airbag and hanging from the other two cranes are two cars that are filled with explosives and held back. And the idea is that I have 30 seconds to escape from the straight jacket and pull a release, which will then drop me safely into the airbag before the cars swing and collide and explode where I'm hanging. That was the bit. And it was massive. And it was a thing of beauty. Actually, we did it in an earlier rehearsal, we did test after test after test and made it work. And it was great. And then I tried it and it worked fine. But you know, the process of of making these things, and coordinating them with, you know, in a big shoot was difficult. And so we were actually there for three weeks in a row to make it work. And the incident was a rehearsal. It was supposed to be a camera rehearsal. And even the cameras, they weren't there, they didn't come. And people don't really understand. And understandably, people don't really get the mechanisms of television. But in television, a lot of the time, there will be a thing called the camera rehearsal, where you will do your act in a variety show like this, you'll do your performance, so that the camera men and the director know what's going to happen. So they know how to film it. And also, so they don't miss anything that's crucial. And that make sense to me when you're filming a tap dancer or a stand up comedian or someone. But if you're asking somebody to do something dangerous, it always seemed a bit silly to make them do it twice. But nevertheless, that's what happened. And, and it didn't work. Everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong. And all of those things were out of my control, in that I did everything I was supposed to do. And it was things that were outside of my control that resulted in the incident. And so I was crushed between the cars, the cars exploded. And then I fell 30 feet, not to the airbag, but now to the ground head first. And so that's what happened. Now, I don't remember any of that. I remember... And this is the funny thing is that, you know, if you if you spent a lifetime doing dangerous things, you essentially... I eliminated my fear, like, I'm not a person that has fear. And so I submit to you that if you were about to be hit by a car, you would flinch, react, there would be a response. And I was about to be hit by two cars. And my response was that I went, 'Oh.' And that was it. That was my last memory of that side of my life. And I must have been conscious. Because I didn't hit my head. I fell 30 feet headfirst to the ground. And I didn't hit my head. I cut and I broke both my shoulders. But I didn't have a head injury, which is why we can have a conversation right now. I broke both my legs, I ended up with massive third-degree burns. I destroyed one of my kidneys. I broke ribs, I punctured a lung. And I suffered a complete spinal injury. I got a free ride in a helicopter. I was taken to Grady Hospital in Atlanta. And there I stayed for the next five weeks. So yeah, that was my October the 14th.
Chion Wolf 08:39
How are you today?
Jonathan Goodwin 08:41
I'm good thanks. You know, it's.. Life is very different. My life changed entirely. In a moment, it changed entirely. But I was always, pre my accident actually, I've always been an incredibly stoic person. I'm not a person that gets down in. I'm very much a person that lives in the moment. You know, we can't change the past. And we can't predict the future. We don't have crystal balls. Both of those things, actually. And a lot of people I think spend a lot of their time mentally in those places. People occupy their time thinking about what's happened and what if, you know, in the future, you know, what will be, but both of those periods of time only exists in your head. And the only time that you live is now it's the only time that you have any kind of control. And I had spent my life learning to deal with physical challenges. And so there was something about this, albeit incredibly difficult, that was very familiar to me. It was like somebody handing me the keys to a car I knew how to drive.
09:48
It's almost like there was something around you or in you or through you that was like you want to put your money where your mouth is? Here.
Jonathan Goodwin 10:01
Yeah, yeah. And that's a weird, almost perverse part of it is that there, don't get me wrong, there is, you know, I don't mean to belittle what I've experienced, and also what other spinal patients experience. It is horrendous. And the amount of loss is very significant. But I just am an emotionally very strong person. And I think that there is a part of it that I find perversely exciting. I mean, there's numerous reasons for that. But for example, there has never been a better time to be someone who is spinally injured than today. The amount of progress that is happening to help resolve the issues of spinal conditions is, is really staggering. You know, there's an amazing company in Germany that has this incredible exoskeleton, a personal exoskeleton, essentially robot trousers that will allow you to stand and walk and even climb stairs. And if you're a person in a wheelchair, then stairs, that's literally like, the worst thing, you know. I mean, it's several different companies. There's an amazing company in Lausanne, Switzerland, that in very recent years have through surgical implantation, they put a chip above and below the injured part of your spinal cord. And it bridges the gap. And they've had people with complete spinal injury stand and walk, which has never happened before. You know, it literally, that's just happened in the last couple of years. And so, for me, being someone who is spinally injured, it feels a little bit like being in the Apollo program. And I might not get to go to the moon, but to be part of the conversation, when all of this incredible change is happening is amazing. So yeah, there's, there's a lot but you know, like I said, it's like, honestly, truly, if I could be convinced that I died during the accident, and that this is a completely different universe, that I have a completely different life, and a completely different goal and mission, like all of that feels like somebody else now. And the life that I have right now is very exciting. And I'm very excited to find out where I can go with it. And what will happen, I guess, the closest thing that I can get to an analogy is it's a bit like you're going on a road trip, you know where you're going, and you know how fast you're going. And you know what the destination is, because most people are going there, and then all of a sudden, you take a right turn, and now you're off road and you don't know where you're going. And although that's an unknown journey, that's exciting. It's the, you know, the unknown and the unexpected part of it, I find perversely interesting.
Chion Wolf 13:07
That was Jonathan Goodwin. In 2021, he was paralyzed while rehearsing a stunt for America's Got Talent: Extreme. When we get back...
Jonathan Goodwin 13:16
Nearly dying is an incredible therapy. I just wouldn't recommend it.
Chion Wolf 13:22
Then insights about acceptance from David Holmes. He played Daniel Radcliffe's stunt double in Harry Potter until an accident on set caused him to be paralyzed for life.
David Holmes 13:33
Acceptance, that is everything. The whole lesson of life is 'Alright, I'm here now. What can I do about it?'
Chion Wolf 13:43
I'm Chion Wolf. This is Audacious. Stay with me. This is Audacious. I'm Chion Wolf. Today we're meeting to stunt people whose lives were changed after their stunts went wrong. In a little bit, you'll meet David Holmes. He was a stunt double for actor Daniel Radcliffe in all eight Harry Potter movies. In 2023, a documentary chronicled his life before and after the 2009 on-set injury that left him paralyzed. But right now we're talking with Jonathan Goodwin. He was paralyzed in 2021 while in rehearsal for his stunt on America's Got Talent: Extreme. Back to our conversation. I wonder what you think when you see pictures or footage of yourself from before the accident. Like when I think about, when I see pictures of myself before I went through something really shocking and difficult, I often think she has no idea. She's two weeks away from it. Or what's going on right now that she doesn't realize is going to lead to this big explosion for me. So when you look at footage of yourself from before, what kind of feelings do you feel? What kind of things do you wish he could like beam into him?
Jonathan Goodwin 15:06
Well, do you know what? It's, that's a really, I, you know, obviously it would be amazing to, to have a conversation with that version of me. But I'm not a person that has regrets. I don't, you know, it feels a little bit like a waste of, of thought energy. And, and at the same time, a month before my accident happened, I got engaged. And my partner, my fiancee, Amanda, and we had only just met, though we had like a crazy courtship. I just met her and I knew, and we were engaged within a month, and then another one month went by and this happened. It all feels very sort of kismet. And I spent most of my life being super cynical about that kind of thing, and yet forced with this evidence of this incredible relationship that I have. And I don't know what would have happened to me, I can't think what would have happened to me. Without Amanda, like, I don't know how I would have dealt with this. So I have had so much good right into this terrible thing that I couldn't unpick it. I couldn't say, 'No, I don't want that to happen,' or because it would mean that I would lose some of the things that have been wonderful that have happened to me. So I'm not a backward-looking person. You can't, you know, you can't unpick. Yes, I obviously wish that the accident didn't happen. But I also don't wish for that kind of change in my life where I am right now.
16:54
Do you think because of this experience, when the next hard thing happens, inevitably, because they always do, that you'll be better prepared for it?
Jonathan Goodwin 17:06
Yes, I mean, like I said, I've always been a person that has dealt with hard things well. And one thing that's happened since the incident is that it's changed my attitude, and made me more patient. You have to, if you're a person who is in a wheelchair, you have to be patient, because things just take way longer. That's certainly a thing that that happened. So you learn patience really, really, really quickly. But also, I don't get stressed out by things that would have stressed me out before. Or you can look at what happened to me in two ways. You can either think, 'Well, gosh, isn't he unlucky, you know, because he had all of this stuff taken away from him?' Or you can think, 'Well, he should have died. And isn't he lucky that he gets the second chance?' And that's literally looking at both sets of circumstances, from just different points of view. And I definitely take the latter, you know, I feel incredibly lucky to be here. And I'm even more present than I was before. I just notice the beauty in things that I would probably have, would have passed me by in the past, because I appreciate how lucky I am to be here. And that it could have been a very, very different story. Nearly dying is an incredible therapy. I just wouldn't recommend it.
Chion Wolf 18:37
What happened to you in 2021 is not everything there is about you. And so when a long time from now, you are remembered. How would you like to be remembered?
Jonathan Goodwin 18:53
What's interesting is that when you die, people come out of the woodwork and they tell you, they say nice things about you. And they talk about that question. They talk about your legacy. And you never get to hear it because you're gone. When you nearly die, the same thing happens actually, you still get all of those people coming out of the woodwork and saying nice things, but this time, you get to hear it. So to a certain extent, I know what that's part of my legacy is already. And people are very, very lovely. I have been called the greatest escape artist since Houdini and all sorts of very lovely things. I think that my desire is perhaps a little more simple, which is that if people remember me, A, if they remember me, that's great. And if they remember me as one who was kind and made a positive impact, you know, on this little journey that we're all on, then that's great. I would love to have a positive impact that lasts beyond my life. But it's not that important to me. What's important to me is making that impact while I'm here.
Chion Wolf 20:15
Well, Jonathan Goodwin, thank you so much for talking with me. I'm glad you're feeling better.
Jonathan Goodwin 20:22
Thank you. You're so welcome. I loved this, by the way. It was, this was a wonderful chat, and not like normal conversations that I have with journalists. So that's wonderful. Thanks. Well done for not asking the usual questions.
Chion Wolf 20:38
Thank you, a high compliment. Jonathan is a hypnotherapist, screenwriter, keynote speaker and an ambassador for the Spinal Injuries Association in the UK. We have a link to his work at ct public.org/audacious. Now, we did record this conversation with Jonathan back in May of 2023. And the OSHA inspection that he mentioned was completed since then, and the case was closed in November. In October of 2023, Jonathan filed a lawsuit against Fremantle Media, the production company of America's Got Talent: Extreme, and other defendants. We did not hear back from Fremantle Media when we reached out for comment. If you've ever heard this music [music from Harry Potter plays], then you've seen David Holmes. He was actor Daniel Radcliffe's main stunt man in all of the Harry Potter movies. And up until January 28, 2009, every one of those stunts went beautifully. But during rehearsals for a scene in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part One, something went really wrong. In the scene, Lord Voldemort's snake is supposed to drive Harry through a wall. But the mechanism that David was attached to was jerked back too hard. And in an instant, he broke his neck and became paralyzed from the chest down. Since it happened, David's had multiple surgeries and physical setbacks. And he's also been creating. In 2023, he and Daniel Radcliffe produced a Max documentary of life before and after the incident, called David Holmes, The Boy Who Lived. But let's back all the way up. I asked David, when did he first know that being a stuntman was his calling.
David Holmes 22:33
I always knew I was brave. As a gymnast, I was very, very brave. I wasn't the most finesse. I would, you know, excuse the word, but f* it and chuck it with a move. I'd go for it and see what would happen when I landed. I was always just, let's give it a go. What's the worst that can happen? So as a brave gymnast, to then get the opportunity to get exposed to the wonders of the film industry? I was like, 'This is it for me. This is all I'm gonna do.' And by God, did I love it.
Chion Wolf 23:16
Now you then became the main Harry Potter stunt double in all eight Harry Potter films. When you got this gig, how aware were you that this was going to be a big freakin' deal?
David Holmes 23:31
When the first one was having its premiere, and they were launching a book all within the same six months, all of a sudden, you were like on the biggest thing in the UK industry. Yeah, that was definitely a defining moment seeing the premiere reaction, watching kids camp outside bookshops about this story. We really knew as, like, a British film industry that we're onto a winner. And I think what was amazing is a lot of the actors know that were signing up, as well. They knew from their own children, they knew from the writing. So yeah, it was, I realized that, you know, people in art can spot talent early, and can spot good writing and amazing opportunities. And yeah, I think the British film industry was really lucky to have got that gift from Jo Rowling. You know, not only does she teach a generation how to read, but she also was able to provide a 10-year-product that worked, harnessing the brightest and best of British filmmaking talent in, you know, to tell the beauty of what that story is. So, yeah, it was just a perfect sort of arriving of lots of things that went into making those films. So I consider myself very lucky.
Chion Wolf 25:06
And you worked alongside some truly wonderful stunt people. And I'd like to hear what's the difference between a really good stunt person and an extraordinary stunt person like you.
David Holmes 25:21
I mean, most people I encounter in the British film industry, the stunt industry, are British performers. And in the UK, you have to do six sports. You have to get qualification. It's not just I want to be a stamp man. And part of that qualification is years of performing background, and then six sports, six disciplines to a national competition level. It's hard to be a stunt man in the UK, it takes years to train. My six disciplines were gymnastics, trampolining, high diving, kickboxing, horse riding, swimming. Blackbelt, kick-boxer, you know, like showjumping, horse riding, and like swimming. So, and the swim test is a swim test, like, it's hard, hard. So to do that, just to get on a film set, to get qualified to get working with people, you already are gifted, driven, talented, all of those things. So my interaction with the UK standard industry was only exceptional stunt performers. And some of my mates have done some bat crazy things. So yeah, I mean, a good stunt perfoermer and a great stunt performer, I would say, the really, really good ones are the ones that understand it's all in service of storytelling. And their priority is the safety of themselves. And the safety of this person they were doubling, or the stunt people they were working with around them. So the exceptional ones, the people that really rise to the top are the ones that are not just trying to be brave and get great stunt stories, they're actually trying to make it so it is all of the boxes ticked, it is super, super safe. And it's achievable to do not just once. Sometimes when back in the day, we were rolling film. And sometimes the film stopped and sometimes there's a problem with the camera. Sometimes there's something called a hair in the gate, which is just a bit of dust, where the film lens that meets the cellulite, a hair in the gate. So you've got to redo the shot again. So that means the stunt performers go and redo the stunt again. To do one stunt once, anyone can do that. Can you do one stunt 15 times? You know, 20 times? That's what the standard was back then. Digital, we get a bit more flexibility with that. But um, yeah, that pressure, that understanding of safety, and just the ability to inhabit a character if you're a stunt double, inhabit your actor's physical traits, and hopefully give new action for audiences in front of the camera.
Chion Wolf 28:41
Now, the day of the incident, from, I've seen the documentary and they explained what happened and even show just a bit of footage, but not of the actual incident. Before it happened, was it just another day? What was your headspace, like before it?
David Holmes 29:02
Yeah, I mean, the day before I was just, I'd done a rehearsal of the same gag. So it was just go home, take the dog for a walk. Went to work, had to get up early to drive around the M 25. I lived an hour away from the studios. So that, long days, five o'clock in the morning, nine o'clock at night, every day for 10 years. And trained in the morning, had breakfast, had a shower, and then we just went into the morning stunt rehearsals. So it was like any other day that I'd done throughout the 10 years of my career. But it wasn't just a normal day in somebody's career. And I totally appreciate not lingering on that day. If someone doesn't know your story and they asked what happened, what do you tell them? I dislocated my spinal cord rehearsing a stunt on the Harry Potter series. Basically my sternum folded into my nose. I was winded when I landed on the crash mat, and I had a dislocation and instant paralysis, which affects my all four limbs. So I don't have finger function on two arms. And then, there was no sensation and movement below the C 7 vertebrae. And then I have now since unfortunately, gone through some complications and lost what function I did have of my right side. So I've only got one arm left. And in words of Taylor Swift, living "for the hope of it all."
Chion Wolf 30:52
You said that you knew right away that you were paralyzed. And it's one thing to know that. I obviously haven't been in that situation. But I imagine that it's one thing to know that because you know your body.
David Holmes 31:08
Yeah.
Chion Wolf 31:09
But it's another thing to know that in terms of the rest of your life. Was there a moment where you realized: This is a before and after, my life will never be the same?
David Holmes 31:23
Yeah, of course, there is. Yeah. Yeah. When you, you know, come to that acceptance, then you've already grown with it. Like, that's part of the journey. Acceptance is a thing that's inevitable for all of us human beings. I just learned that hard lesson at 25. You know, like, it always has to end up in acceptance. You know, if you've got any sort of thing going on in your life, with yourself, with other people, you know, just in what life throws at you, it is *bleep* inevitable, excuse my language.
Chion Wolf 32:06
Yeah, we're all pre-disabled. If we're not already.
David Holmes 32:08
Yeah, absolutely. Disability will touch everyone at any stage in their life. Hence, why disability rights are human rights, so I just want for as much advocation as possible. I know what it's like to feel like a second-class citizen. Imagine being 90 years old, and wanting to go and see the sunset for one last time, but the pavements outside your care home are that bad, that it's not safe to take you out. So it's things like that, we all need to realize that we're going to need help from other people, as we grow old. That's why it pays to be a nice person. And it pays to like, be helpful, like, invest in the youth, because those people are going to be wiping our backsides for us one day.
Chion Wolf 33:01
And not just every July during Disability Awareness Month.
David Holmes 33:05
Exactly, exactly, right now. Thanks for dropping that. So yeah, acceptance is not just about this, really. That is everything. The whole lesson of life is, 'Alright, I'm here now. What can I do about it?'
Chion Wolf 33:23
Yeah, fighting the reality is just adding more resistance and pain, rather than seeing everything for all it is?
David Holmes 33:31
Yeah. Are you looking at the problem? Are you looking at the solution? Are you looking for the solution?
Chion Wolf 33:38
How much of this, how much of these insights that you have now, that what we're talking about, has always been in your DNA or always been in your character, and how much of it is stuff you figured out this hard way?
David Holmes 33:53
Everyone says, as a child, I had an old head on young shoulders. But now I've been forced to sit with everything. Like I can't distract myself from it. I can't exercise it off. I can't run it away. I can't lean into anything. My body pays me back if I do not pay attention. So I'm not afforded you know, that luxury. So I just have to sit with whatever's sitting with me. Like I'm learning what it is to be a man and realizing that one of the things to me that matters the most is accountability. I'm more accountable for myself, for my behavior, and my interactions. You know, when it's all taken away, that idea of masculinity. You know, I was a young 25-year-old stuntman, like with a flash car, a decent paycheck, and, you know, a lot of confidence. And as well, 5' 1". Small. You ever heard of small man syndrome?
Chion Wolf 35:07
I have heard of this, yes.
David Holmes 35:08
Yes, yeah, we've got something to prove because we spent our life being picked on. So we have to navigate life in a certain way. And that comes with something that I was able to turn into a positive, which is my ability to live, like I live with the confidence of God.
Chion Wolf 35:28
Now, living with a devotion to accountability also means that blame doesn't have a really useful place in you. And I want people to see the documentary, The Boy Who Lived, and they deeply go into a lot of your recovery and a lot of what went on also in your heart and soul. But I would love to hear your reflections on your relationship with blame after the accident happened and since.
David Holmes 35:54
All of that in life, negativity, hate, blame, anger, the person that is hurting the most is yourself first. More than anything, like, there's no point. Life is ultimately not kind to you. Get with that, that you're gonna, you're given the gift. And then it's gonna take things away. Like they took a lot away from me in an instant, in a moment. But having anger and hatred and holding resentment, the first person that hurts is me. Why would I want to do that to myself? Seeing my pain in my loved ones' eyes taught me that the sooner I can love myself enough to protect them, the easier it becomes. I can only love myself enough if I wasn't holding on to that hate and blame. It sort of lifts away off your shoulders. So yeah, I know, and again, accountability. That makes me accountable to myself.
Chion Wolf 37:11
That was David Holmes. He was Daniel Radcliffe's stunt double during all the Harry Potter movies until an accident during rehearsals left him paralyzed in 2009. After the break,...
David Holmes 37:22
Look, if you ever feel unlucky, just Google the odds of what it is to be alive, incalculable. I live in the 21st century and I am able to survive a broken neck. So breathe in, breathe out.
Chion Wolf 37:40
I'm Chion Wolf. This is Audacious. Stay tuned. This Audacious, I'm Chion Wolf. David Holmes was the stuntman for Daniel Radcliffe in all eight Harry Potter movies. He called it, and still calls it, the best job in the world. But something went wrong during rehearsal for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part One in 2009 and everything changed. Let's get back to our conversation. The documentary on you, The Boy Who Lived, you haven't seen it?
David Holmes 38:28
Not yet.
Chion Wolf 38:29
Why not?
David Holmes 38:30
There'll be a time when I'm ready, when might need it. You know, not many people have the luxury of a HBO documentary to look back on themselves with all the hope and optimism I've gotten along my journey with and I still live with today. And the reason I'm able to live with this today is because I choose not to look back and reflect on what's behind. And I do not try and fret about what's in my future, which is no doubt going to be scarier. There'll be a day I get in bed that I won't get out of it. I'll watch the film then. But until then, no, keep going forwards.
Chion Wolf 39:09
What are your thoughts on God?
David Holmes 39:14
Right now? I just think life is God. Look, if you ever feel unlucky, just Google the odds of what it is to be alive. You want to win the lottery? Yeah, just look at that number. You couldn't even start writing it now and finish writing the amount of zeros before you were dead. If you had a pen and paper right now, it's 5.28 million, whatever. No, 2.8 million times 10 to the power of whatever, like, a silly number. Like, uncalculable. So yeah, I'm lucky. I live in the 21st century and I am able to survive a broken neck. So, God, God in that. I mean, just a fact. Breathe in, breathe out.
Chion Wolf 40:10
This documentary was your idea. Why did you want to make it?
David Holmes 40:15
Harry Potter means a lot for a lot of people around the world. At the time of my accident, and the, all of the situation around that first three years of recovery, I was very mindful that this beautiful thing doesn't need any negativity attached to it. Let's not spoil the lovely thing that's out in the world. No, that's not me protecting a major corporation. That is my decision to not ruin people's bloody childhoods. But, I think the audience have now grown up, they're rediscovering the books and the films with their own children. And it's about time people understand my commitment and my contribution to the lovely memories. So right now people are using the Harry Potter all around the world to make them feel safe. That's a really lovely thing.
Chion Wolf 41:17
Do you wish it didn't happen?
David Holmes 41:23
Yeah, of course I do! I've spent 30 years in prison. You know, I've, or 300 years in prison. If I could do a press up again, of course I would. Yeah, but do I wish it happened to me? More than anybody else in my life? Yeah. That's what I wish. Bad things happen to good people, because they're strong enough to deal with it. The test is put on me because it has to be. If you see it that way, it's allright. And in my friends and my family and my circle, I knew, yeah, I'm the strongest. I mean, there are other people that I could say, would absolutely handle it in the same way. But yeah, yeah, I'm even in my peer support group with other people with spinal cord injuries, I still find myself just going, 'Oh, yeah, you are a bit different.' I've only learned to accept that the last couple of years. And to accept that, like, don't be ashamed of that. The fact that you are tough. The fact that you can do that and other people turn to me for that. But that's a cool thing.
Chion Wolf 42:50
It's amazing to me how much you, I want to say we're forced to learn, but you also were like, 'I'm gonna learn this, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm going to rise to the occasion of this, of this whole post-incident life.' I wonder if, if you could go back in time and speak to yourself as you were strapped in that moment before and you can't change it. It's going to happen but you can say something to yourself. What would you say?
David Holmes 43:21
Nothing. No, there's nothing got no choice. So why waste the words?
Chion Wolf 43:36
This just popped in my head. In my head, I heard you say to yourself, 'I love you.' It sounds like and this is totally me projecting, I'm completely aware of this, but it sounds like you really loved yourself before this, too. Like you felt embodied., you felt like you were saying like you had meaning. And after you've found even, it sounds like you've found even deeper ways to love yourself and the world around you.
David Holmes 44:00
You know, I just gave up trying so hard. There is an amazing poem by a UK artist called Kae Tempest. Yeah, Kae Tempest. Now the poem is called Grace and Kae says the line 'When I stopped looking for me, I found you.'
Kae Tempest 44:23
There are things I have to say about the fullness and the blaze of this beautiful life. The beloved watch the world on its knees with an infinite degree of separation that was something to see. And my friend told me, "Death is like taking off a tight shoe". And when I stopped looking for me, I was able to find you. Right there where everything is...
David Holmes 44:49
And that for me, I was like, 'Yeah, that's the one. Just don't try so hard.' Acceptance is inevitable. You know, so just get on with it.
Chion Wolf 45:02
Is there anything in your life now that's better because of what happened?
David Holmes 45:08
I'm a better man. Definitely, 100%. What a gift that is considering the curse of paralysis. I'm a better man.
Chion Wolf 45:25
So it's not a prescription you would ever write for anybody, but you would endorse.
David Holmes 45:28
No, no, but it's lessons forced upon you, you know, it either makes you or breaks you. And, yeah, I'm a better man. So I'll take that. But that comes with constantly holding myself accountable. If you don't do that all the time, you skewer, you slip. Human beings can be dumb. We can be emotionally reactive. And when you're forced to sit with your problems, like I am, you learn to not make as many.
Chion Wolf 46:07
I've asked everything I needed to ask instead of spending eight hours talking with you, is there anything I missed or anything you wish I would have asked you about and I didn't? Open floor.
David Holmes 46:18
Now, tell me about you. Go on, I've just like given you some deep dive, like
Chion Wolf 46:25
Fair.
David Holmes 46:26
That is fair. Fair's fair, like, you know.
Chion Wolf 46:28
Alright.
David Holmes 46:29
Leading questions there that I was able to navigate, give you a wholesome, honest answer to all of them.
Chion Wolf 46:37
Appreciate it.
David Holmes 46:38
You owe me the same back. So tell me in your life, if you could value the thing the most right now, what would it be?
Chion Wolf 46:51
The thing I value most?
David Holmes 46:52
Is it friends? Is it family? Is it the world? Is it nature, all of those things? Right now. Because it changes, you can't have the same thing all the time.
Chion Wolf 47:06
Right. Right now, as you in particular asked me, my prominent feeling is my health and wellness, my physical health and wellness.
David Holmes 47:16
Right. Okay, so wiggle your toes.
Chion Wolf 47:19
Yeah. Yeah.
David Holmes 47:20
150 to 250 mile an hour, those nerve signals from your brain to the tips of your toes. Appreciate that. You asked me about God. It's right there.
Chion Wolf 47:38
Well, David Holmes, thank you so much for talking with me.
David Holmes 47:42
That's alright, thanks for your time. Nice conversation.
Chion Wolf 47:46
Audacious is always lovingly produced by Jessica Severin de Martinez, Khaleel Rahman, Meg Fitzgerald, Meg Dalton and Catie Talarski at Connecticut Public Radio in Hartford. If you liked this episode, check out the one where we get to know two actors who have facial differences. Like Dawn Shaw, whose face has been half-paralyzed since the removal of a tumor at birth. And David Roche, who has a condition where dark purple veins cover much of the left side of his face and neck. They talked about what it's like being on camera in the film industry. You can find those conversations, and we'll have a link to David Holmes, The Boy Who Lived, the documentary on our guest today, at ctpublic.org/audacious. And please go ahead and subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app. Stay in touch with me on the socials at Chion Wolf, and you can always send an email to Audacious@ctpublic.org. Thanks for listening.