Where We Live Transcript: A look at efforts to improve accessible parking regulation in Connecticut

Catherine Shen:

This is Where We Live from Connecticut Public Radio. I'm Catherine Shen. We're all probably familiar with the blue parking tags that hang from the rearview mirror, allowing easy access to designated parking spaces for those with a disability or a qualifying condition. Around 200,000 people in the state use these tags. That's according to a March report from the Connecticut Examiner. Connecticut's Department of Motor Vehicles began phasing out the permanent or lifetime versions of those tags almost 15 years ago. This is to help curb misuse linking placard renewal with a person's license or ID. Some advocates and lawmakers are hoping more can be done to regulate how these placards are issued and how misuse might be enforced. For example, one bill that just passed the session would ensure a person's health care provider certifies the need for a parking pass, versus an online telehealth provider. Coming up we hear from House Republican Leader Vincent Candelora, and Transportation Committee Co-Chair Senator Christine Cohen, who both testified for that bill. Plus, Connecticut Department of Motor Vehicles Commissioner Tony Guerrera will discuss the recently formed Accessible Parking Advisory Council. But first, joining me now, is one family from North Branford that has been advocating on this issue. We have Alexandra Bode, who's the executive director for the nonprofit Peace Love & ACCESSibility, or PLA. Alongside her is her fellow advocate and her older brother Sam Bode. Mary Caruso is their mother and PLAA founder, Thank you so much for being on Where We Live today.

Mary Caruso:

Well, thanks for allowing us to talk about it.

Catherine Shen:

So I want to start the conversation off with a question for both Alex and Mary. Can you talk about what brought you and your family to begin this nonprofit? What are some of the things that you've observed in your neighborhood out?

Mary Caruso:

Yeah, I think for Al, and obviously, Sam, they got to a point where it became increasingly more difficult to access places in their community that they love to go to. And Al just said, you know, one day I got really tired of it.

Catherine Shen:

And can you talk about some of the things that you observed in your neighborhood? Was there something specific that kind of started this?

Mary Caruso:

The number one problem we've encountered is people parking in what's called an access aisle. So every so many parking spots, I believe one in six, there's a van spot for people who use a ramp van, which Sam and Al both use. And that access aisle allows you to open up your ramp, exit your car and go about your business. Time after time, they'd come back to their car, their van, and there'd be someone parked in that access style. It's happening almost daily now. And we see that as an unmet need. I I believe most people just really didn't know that. That is not a parking spot. Al, you did a lot of posts on your Facebook, on your social media about it, correct? And so many people reached out to her to thank her and to ask questions. So I think that was the number one problem. We still see a lot of the “lifetime” placards out there. We picked one spot in North Branford for one month, we quickly photographed illegal placards, and we came up with 108 illegal placards, both lifetime and or expired, or even people who cut and paste out of magazines to make up their own placard. So, the time had come.

Catherine Shen:

And we will be discussing that in more detail throughout this conversation. But I also want to point out, Mary, you have flyers for these instances, right?

Mary Caruso:

We do. We have very friendly cards to alert people that are in violation. There's one for access styles, one for the lifetime placard, one for people parking without a placard, and one for expired placards. So when we see a car, we were very careful, because we have a friendly mission. And if the opportunity arises, we'll slide a card under a windshield wiper to let people know. And it's a friendly reminder either not to park there if you don't have a placard, or if they have a lifetime placard, they need to visit their physician or practitioner to get a new placard. So Al developed those early on.

Catherine Shen:

And talking about the friendly mission. With that in mind, you know, Mary, this is not a conversation meant to inspire listeners to become vigilantes for parking pass use, or to make inferences about what is or isn't a visible or invisible disability. Can you add more to that?

Mary Caruso:

And that is so important. Catherine, thank you for bringing that up. Because we have a very hard stance on people with placards. For people with legal placards, that is between them and their health care practitioners. It's not for us to judge whether they should or should not have that placard. We really found that there were so many illegal placards out there, and so much of the public that just didn't understand the importance behind you know, DMV’s placard program, that we thought through education and public awareness, we can make some level of change. And I do believe it's working.

Catherine Shen:

With the process that you've been talking about, you know, there's movement, there has been some changes, especially with the flyers and the cars that you're leaving on people's cars. Related to that process, the survey that you all put together, what was it for? Who is it for and who were the different groups who received them?

Mary Caruso:

We did four groups. And again, I mean, I Malz wing men, but she really is the force behind all this. I want to add, she does have her master's in social work. And she's always wanted to help people. So you know, although Al, you know, we joke. Al hates to talk and I talk too much. So we make the perfect pair on this mission, clearly as we're hearing. But she really did some research and decided that we should have four groups: we should have the general public, placard users, law enforcement, and health care practitioners that are the ones that you know, fill out the paperwork and decide on whether the criteria is met to get the placard. We had a really good response from the general public: over 150. So far, placard users are at around 75, although we think that some of the placard users may have spilled over into the general public. We're still trying to extrapolate the data. Police officers are getting better. It's been a hard sell. But we're at 23. And unfortunately, health care providers were just just not having – look, we our health care providers at Hartford Health have really rallied around in helping us to obtain 15 surveys. We did, however, get to connect, and have some good conversations with our personal providers across the array of specialties. And we, unfortunately, are finding that a lot of health care providers, some didn't even know there was criteria around qualifying for the placard. And there is a big gap in communication with health care professionals. So our next move forward is really going to try to connect with them, and maybe rely on the DMV to help us, just to help with the education piece for health care providers, because that's critical.

Catherine Shen:

And so what's the survey? Is that kind of an informational thing to get to understand what everyone knows? Or what was the survey for?

Mary Caruso:

Absolutely, to find out what's important to people, and what we should focus on. And honestly, placard users, what we found immediately is, so many are telling us that they're just not going out in the community anymore, because it's just become so difficult to access through parking, and honestly, into businesses, healthcare facilities, you know, places out in their community. So, you know, we did decide on accessible parking as our first goal, because that seemed to be the biggest need. But we are collecting a lot of data, and it is helping us, you know, with our social media, with our public awareness and with our education piece for people.

Catherine Shen:

We're gonna have someone who responded to that survey, and has also since partnered with PLA. East Haven Police Department Captain Joseph Mergo, thank you so much for joining us today.

Captain Joseph Murgo:

Morning. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Catherine Shen:

Well, you've been listening to the conversation. I want to ask you, you know, how did you first hear about the bodies' effort? And why did you get involved?

Captain Joseph Murgo:

So Alex reached out to us in January. And it was just a simple email just introducing herself and introducing Peace Love & ACCESSibility. And basically just, you know, said what she says all the time, she wanted to start the conversation. And as soon as we looked into the organization, and we met Al and Sam and Mary, we knew that they were on to something, it was clear, they were, you know, passionate about their cause. And it really was a conversation that needed to be started. And we were glad to sit down and chat a little bit more about it.

Catherine Shen:

Did it surprise you with the concerns that they're bringing? What does the enforcement look like from your side of things, and how do you quantify how big of a problem this is in your town or across the state?

Captain Joseph Murgo:

So it's super visible, right? You know, you can pull up to a restaurant, or a quick to-go spot or a coffee shop, and you can see, almost every time you drive by or pull in, somebody's parked, maybe not necessarily in a handicap space, but usually parked in the hash lines with the access aisle. And it's just simple awareness. It's just simple education. People don't realize what that access aisle is. And they think to themselves, well, it's better than parking in the actual handicap space. And if they don't realize that the access aisle is, is used for wheelchair accessible loading and unloading. It's glaring, and you don't know what you don't know. And that's why we're happy to partner with Al and her team, to bring that awareness to our community.

Catherine Shen:

And can you talk about the PSA that you are a part of? What do you want the public to know?

Captain Joseph Murgo:

Sure. You know, enforcement requires a combination of education. Do people know the laws? Do people know what those different areas mean and what they're intended for? Awareness, it was just the visible campaign, which is the PSAs. And out of that, you know, we hope to sort of launch a little bit more consistency and enforcement and dedicate adequate resources. So the PSA is basically a launchpad. It's to introduce this initiative to the community at a wide spectrum. And I'm pretty confident that people are going to learn something once they see it. And they're certainly going to meet Alex and Sam and Mary and understand how passionate they are and how serious this concern is for us and for them.

Catherine Shen:

Well, you've been listening to Captain Joseph Mergo. Captain Mergo, thank you so much for your time and sharing your experience with us.

Captain Joseph Murgo:

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Catherine Shen:

Sam, I want to bring you in here. Your mom told us that a lot of placard users felt discouraged because of some of these experiences, or some of the things that they witnessed, like what Captain Murgo just shared with us. Does that resonate with you, Sam?

Sam Bode:

Yes, it does. Because, like Alex, I was sick and tired of everyone using handicap placards and it’s gotta stop.

Mary Caruso:

Sam is very different than Alex. Sam will have no qualms about saying things upfront, but it is true. We've heard a lot of stories. It's very common, unfortunately, in universities, where students will grab a relative's placard because most parking is off-campus. We have heard people have brought specific stories to us. And we have tried, you know, to reach out to people who lived experience and storytelling to help them understand what their actions are actually doing, like taking away from people that need it. But Sam doesn't have the same tolerance level, which is why Al does most of the work.

Catherine Shen:

Or once again, that's why the world is balanced. The three of you are the perfect trio, it sounds like.

Sam Bode:

I think if anyone's listening, and they do want to participate in a survey, those are on Facebook.

Catherine Shen:

On that Facebook page is linked on our website, for those listeners who would like to be involved. You've been listening to Mary Caruso, Alexandria and Sam Bode, who are behind the nonprofit Peace Love & ACCESSibility.

****

Catherine Shen:

Joining me now to discuss a bill that went through this legislative session related to this issue is House Republican Leader Vincent Candelora, and Transportation Committee Co-Chair Senator Christine Cohen. Senator Cohen, thank you for being with us today. Representative Candelora I want to start with you, and dive into this bill that we mentioned earlier. Can you tell us will this do to better regulate accessibility parking passes?

Rep. Vincent Candelora:

I think we're trying to maintain the spirit and intent of how we go about issuing handicap accessibility passes and that it should be through a doctor-patient relationship, a treating physician. What we are seeing, as technology is changing in healthcare, people are moving to online platforms and it could be good and bad. But we want to make sure that we don't have this become the sort of a proprietary enterprise where people are just making money off of it by offering a service online or through the internet, where they can sign off and issue handicap placards without actually having that doctor-patient relationship to assess properly, whether or not somebody is in need of one.

Catherine Shen:

And Senator Cohen, can you talk about why is this such an important issue? It doesn't sound like it’s a new issue.

Sen. Christine Cohen:

First, let me say, Catherine, I'm privileged to represent such staunch advocates for the disability community in Mary Caruso and Sam and Alex Bode and the rest of their family and friends. Both Representative Candelora and I have been working with them for years to tackle the misuse and fraud related to accessibility parking placards. We've all seen the misuse of these placards in spots reserved for those with disabilities, and the fraudulent issuance of placards by doctors who may not have a true understanding of their patients’ needs. So you know, this misuse really not only undermines the integrity of our accessibility programs, but also creates significant barriers for those who genuinely require these accommodations. And I think our constituents with disabilities face numerous challenges in their daily lives, access to parking spaces designed to accommodate their needs shouldn't be one of them. And I think, you know, Representative Candelora and I realized, and working with them, that by cracking down on fraud and misuse, we are really ensuring that these vital parking spots are available to those who truly need them and enabling greater independence and mobility for individuals with disabilities. So we've been working with our Department of Motor Vehicles, we did pass legislation to set up an Accessibility Parking Council. And I'm proud that work has begun of that council. But I think in the meantime, you know, Representative Candelora and I have really been trying to come at this and he came up with this idea, and we really thought it was something important to do in the interim. Well, the Placard Council is really getting to work on other issues to address in this realm.

Catherine Shen:

And Representative Candelora, we've heard from law enforcement earlier, talking about how enforcement is a very multi-layered issue. And there's a lot of moving parts here. Because the people involved, it's not just doctors’ or DMV, or police. So can you talk about, you know, what are your hopes for the Council?

Rep. Vincent Candelora:

I mean, I think there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to handicap parking, you know, looking at: Connecticut used to have the lifetime placard. So how do we sort of rein those in and make sure that people understand that those are no longer valid, and we need to go toward the placards that are expiring, also coming out with ways to educate people with the parking spaces, not just the individuals that use them, but also the businesses that, that have them. In the public sector, we have public parking spaces with handicap accessibility. When you move into the private business realm, you know, those spaces are sort of a snapshot in time. And we don't necessarily enforce the maintenance and the continuation of those spaces, in communities. And so the laws are on the books, for a reason. I think bringing understanding not just to the people that are using the spaces, but also the ones that need to maintain them, whether it be striping or proper signage, so that the people that are in need of using these spaces have the ability to continue to use them and access the same spaces that able-bodied people can access.

Catherine Shen:

And Senator Cohen, there's been a lot of movement and a lot of success. It sounds like what would you like to see done beyond the bill?

Sen. Christine Cohen:

Well, I think this bill is a result of collaboration and advocacy from individuals with disabilities who've really fought tirelessly for their rights and the people who care for them and love them. It's really a testament to the power of grassroots activism, things like this, where we see our constituents bringing us issues and wanting to see and bring about change and the importance of us listening to and amplifying those voices, particularly of marginalized communities. So, I think as lawmakers, it's our duty to protect the rights and improve the lives of all of our residents. They think this bill is an important step towards creating a more inclusive and accessible society. So I do think just by having these discussions, by the placard council meeting regularly and understanding more about the issues, particularly with those in the accessibility community, I think we'll understand more about what next steps need to happen. So I'm so happy that we were able to work together to get these things done, and looking forward to seeing what the council brings.

Catherine Shen:

Really quick, final thoughts for both of you? Representative Candelora, what do you hope listeners can take away from this conversation today?

Rep. Vincent Candelora:

Yeah, I think, you know, it's a complicated, difficult issue, because it involves so many different people that come into play, you know, our health care industry, the business industry, our towns and communities, our Department of Motor Vehicles, that we have to continue to talk about this. And that's why I think the council is a great step. And what what the Caruso and Bode family have done with advocacy and educating people, that when you're using handicapped space, if you don't really need it, you're actually potentially taking away the ability for somebody else to be able to use it and have the same access and mobility to places that able-bodied people are going. So I think this is a great step to start this process of really trying to tamp down on people who might not be intentionally misusing these, but just not thinking about it, of how it impacts people, when you're overusing or abusing the handicap placards.

Sen. Christine Cohen:

Yeah, I agree with that. And I'm, you know, like I said, I think this is really the result of a lot of collaboration and advocacy. I too, am grateful to the Caruso and Bode family, for bringing these issues to us and helping to enlighten us about the issues the disability community faces. This is just one of them. But I also think it's important that we continue this work and continue listening and understanding so that we can continue to make progress for not just the disability community, but for residents on the whole, just gaining understanding about what they face every day. So thank you so much.

Catherine Shen:

Thank you both for being on today and transportation committee Co-Chair Senator Christine. Christine Cohen, House Republican Leader Vincent Candelora, thank you for being with us today. And I just want to make a quick note here that the Associated Press guidelines have retired the phrase handicap in favor of disability. And Mary, just some quick thoughts from you as well. You've been listening to the lawmakers here and also heard the news that the bill went through, you know, what's going through your mind?

Mary Caruso:

I'm obviously very happy and excited and appreciative of the support we did receive from both Representative Candelora and Senator Cohen. I think it's important this this bill is important because the way we saw it, it's one of two things, either someone that isn't able to get a placard and feels they can get it online, or two, someone that may not realize that our placards are free. You don't have to spend $150 to get it. And I do want to add that we tested the system; we had a grad student who was very interested in trying to get an accessible placard and was successful, and never actually saw a physician. It was through text messaging, and it was through a physician in Hawaii and a physician in San Francisco. So that kind of clinched the deal for us. So we're excited that we were able to investigate, find a flaw, bring it to our legislators who felt it was worthy and we think we did a good thing for the general public all the way around. What do you think Al?

Alexandra Bode:

Let’s keep the conversation going!

Mary Caruso:

She's gonna change the slogan from “start the conversation” to “keep the conversation going.”

Catherine Shen:

That's a beautiful change. That sounds like that sounds like a good plan.

***

Catherine Shen:

Joining us now is Connecticut Department of Motor Vehicles Commissioner Tony Guerrera. Commissioner, thank you so much for being on the show today.

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Thank you, Catherine, for having me on.

Catherine Shen:

So I want to give you a chance to respond to the discussion that you've heard so far this hour to anything jump out to you, Commissioner?

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Well, again, I think it's a discussion that has been talked about, obviously, for a number of years. But finally, I think that through the leaders of the legislature, as representative Kendall, Laura's calling, and this taskforce that we've we've set up is hopefully to get our arms around this, and how we can make sure that people who are handicapped have the accessibility to get the places without being inconvenience. And I think that having this council and having the right people on it, Catherine is important when we say the right people, law enforcement, people like Miss Caruso, who was just on the phone with us. People at the Department of Motor Vehicle, medical professionals, handicap individuals to share their perspective of how we can change this, and to make it better for everyone in the state of Connecticut.

Catherine Shen:

So this council we've been talking about, the Accessible Parking Advisory Council, has met twice since March. And the Connecticut Examiner reported that the council will report back to the state legislature by January 2025 on how to better address placard fraud. So Commissioner, can you give us a sense of what's happened so far? Any early goals that you've identified, or anything that you're prioritizing right now?

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Sure. We've met obviously, we're going on our third time, within the next I think a couple of weeks, we're meeting again. So with that, though, we've talked about obviously, what is the number one issue that we see, one is one, the enforcement issue, right? How do you determine a placard is expired? How do you determine that that individual truly does have one? Is it accessible for a law enforcement individual to read the placard enough, to see if it isn't or not? And these are some of the takeaways we've seen so far, in our first couple of meetings. And that is, maybe we need to revamp the placard, maybe we need to make it in a sense that a placard might the year the placard stands out, where it shows like that you have this placard, or maybe I think it's up to two years, or maybe one year, I gotta check what it was. But let's just say, Catherine, that you have a placard for two years and on there would show that you would have it from 2024 and bold numbers to 2026. So therefore, it's very visible to someone who is using that parking spot, that they shouldn't be in that spot. And if it's not, then it gives one whether it's citation or to be notified to the DMV or to law enforcement.

Catherine Shen:

So we've talked about lifetime placards. What is your sense of the number of those placards that are still in use? Back in 2010, before they were phased out, there were roughly 300,000 tags that were still in use. And this was reported out from an NBC report citing the DMV. And we've also just talked to the Bodie family and Officer Murgo who have observed those placards that are still in use. So do you have an idea? How many of them are still out there?

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Yeah. It's a very difficult number to get because it was a lifetime placard. We have not issued any more lifetime placards to your point Catherine, since 2010. What the issue is, and I'll be quite honest with all your listeners in yourself, is that how do you know they're still out there because people don't return them back in. We can ask for them to be returned back in. But some of the comments we've received is “I don't have it anymore,” “I've discarded it,” whatever it is. So it's very difficult. We've seen that number come way down. And we've gone through some of the stats that we've seen, whether it's through police reports, or whatever, or law enforcement. So that's a good thing over the last 14 years that that lifetime placard has drastically cut down. So that's a good thing. But the other issue is, as we know, is we just can't have medical providers, willy-nilly just signing off on any type of someone that comes in with a diagnosis that maybe isn't quite handicap placard accessibility that they should have one. And that's why we put medical professionals on this advisory council. We want to hear from our local police officers, and so forth to make sure that what do they see? And we looked at other states, Catherine, to be quite honest, we looked at some states that, you know, where the fines are pretty drastic, if you're parking and a handicap placard, and you shouldn't be there. It's not a $20 fine, or a $50 fine. Some of these fines can range up to $500. And therefore, you know, it says it sends a strong message, not to ever do something like that again.

Catherine Shen:

well. Speaking of fines, can you talk about how many infractions relate to the lifetime parking tags, have your office logged? Or do you have a sense of the scale of this issue?

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Again, I don't have the direct numbers or the accurate numbers to speak, right now I can find those out. But again, it's a tough situation, because I remember as a former legislator on the Transportation Committee, talking about back to what you said, back to 2010. And I get a sense that it's hard because, say you go like I remember to the Carusos, spoke to me about this, you go into a Walmart or Target or whatever it may be, or Stop and Shop. And you see those places, they're all right, and people pull in, all right. But these, but that they shouldn't be there. But by the time you get law enforcement out there, or maybe they may say, at the time that is really the private property, we're really not going to come out to do any enforcement or whatever it is. And therefore, nothing gets done. I think the tide has turned, where law enforcement is working very closely with the advocacy group, and people that are very passionate about this, to start making those passes in private areas, because that's where we see it the most. And therefore, given them the citations, that that unfortunately, they deserve.

Catherine Shen:

And with the many movements happening, we also know here in Connecticut, a lot of proposed bills do get sent out to research committees. And we know a good amount of DMV research led to the phasing out of those lifetime parking placards and 2010 that we mentioned earlier. Can you talk about what are your hopes for this council and actions that might be taken in the future?

DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera:

Well, again, my hope is to let's, let's not try to basically come into this council, and come out of this to try to change so much that nothing gets done. My focus is to listen to the people. Let's try to get three items that are so important to everyone. And let's get them done. I'm a big proponent of that, Catherine, to get things done in a way that can have a big impact in a short timeframe. And to keep this council maybe going to keep looking at this and keep making changes, not to put it aside, right, that we've done this, we did three things and I'll put it aside and nothing gets fun for the next 10 years. But to keep coming back to this within maybe every every year or every two years to keep making changes to better equip people who need that placard. And to make sure they have the accessibility just like everyone else that they deserve to go to point A to point B.

Catherine Shen:

Well, we'll definitely be following up on this Connecticut DMV Commissioner Tony Guerrera, thank you so much for your time today. And, Mary, I want to bring this back to you for some final questions of the hour. Anything that jumped out to you, Mary?

Mary Caruso:

Thank you for that question. I mean, first and foremost, we're so grateful for the interest in the Commissioner. He's an extremely busy person. And he's really given a lot of thought into what the members of the council are saying. I, you know, one thing that jumps out at me because we thought about this, as we were visiting police departments, like, what can we do to make change in every department has said to us, what can we do? So we decided to start asking departments to think about doing one targeted enforcement or community awareness piece a year. There's about 95 police departments in the state of Connecticut. So our thought is, if we could get half of them to do one targeted day in their communities, it would be about once a week. What better public awareness piece is that? So, so far, everybody is committed to that, which would mean they'd be out for one day, and they'd be either pulling illegal placards, or just talking to the community about accessible parking. And we think that will make a huge difference. Al?

Catherine Shen:

I think one of the themes today, too, is I think every person has mentioned some sort of broader misconceptions that they like to address, whether it's switching up the placard, or assuming that you can park at a spa that you're not supposed to be parking at, uh, can you talk about some of your misconceptions that you would like to address? No, especially when it concerns the disabled community around where we live? And, and how should we be rethinking this, Mary?

Mary Caruso:

Yeah, um, I think two things that we as a family talked about and adhere to, that I think a lot of people don't agree with. But that's okay. If Sam or Al are going out into the community – they don't drive their assistants drive them – if they're going to a store, and they are not going to be going to the store, we agreed that they would not use an accessible spot. Because after all, it is for access for the person with the disability, so their assistant doesn't have one. So we see that is helping fellow placard users. We're not going to take up that spot, if they don't need access to get into where they're going. So that's one of the things that we see happen a lot and could help improve accessibility among placard users. The other thing that we see a lot and we've talked about, say they go into a restaurant in there getting lunch with their assistant, and they come out and they get in the van and they're going to eat their lunch for a half hour move out of the spot. They can eat lunch anywhere. So you know, we see those as ways for our fellow placard users, we could help each other in thinking about what we're doing, being mindful of those spaces. So nobody you know nobody really brings those up but we try to bring those up when we have conversations with other placard users.

Alexandria Bode:

People park in the –

Mary Caruso:

Right, as we've talked about through this hour, is that accessible parking aisle.

Alexandria Bode:

It’s not a spot!

Mary Caruso:

It's not, and that it's just not okay to pull in to grab your coffee. It's just not okay.

Catherine Shen:

Well, we appreciate you expressing your thoughts Al. And I also want to ask Sam, you know, even listening to what your mom has to say to you know, what should we be rethinking?

Sam Bode:

I think we should always have a positive attitude discussing needs with different people.

Mary Caruso:

Yep, always be positive. You're absolutely right.

Catherine Shen:

I mean, that sounds like a great note, really for all of us. We can all use a little bit more positivity. And Sam, just really quickly, any final thoughts that you would like to share? What do you hope our listeners get out from this conversation today?

Sam Bode:

Like, don't don't work in this spot. Don't park in the hashtags? And don't go like to eat lunch and and to give us

Alexandria Bode:

Keep the conversation going.

Mary Caruso:

You've started the conversation now it's up to the community to keep it going. Keep it going.

Catherine Shen:

Well, thank you so much for helping us keep the conversation going. And Sam and Mary, just also really quickly, your final thoughts here, too: What do you hope our listeners take out from this conversation today?

Mary Caruso:

Well, I hope everyone realizes that this is a conversation that has been long coming. We've really struggled with trying to get the attention that it really deserves, and it's exciting to see so many people interested that I hope it does make a difference. And I you know, I hope simple awareness does help people understand that it's nothing to be complacent about. It's a real need for a real group of valued people.

Catherine Shen:

Thank you all so much for starting and keeping this conversation going with us. You've been listening to Mary Caruso, Alexandria and Sam Bodie.